X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm6-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.114] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5055677 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:42:05 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.114; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2011 17:41:28 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.79] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2011 17:41:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2011 17:41:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 821757.90511.bm@omp1016.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 68987 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jul 2011 17:41:28 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1311010888; bh=1F5gy7NCzXmYn7EYQFp+Y/5lXGkfFxV7twwa4Y3coqc=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=L7RvDQp0ADxwnGU27nl47embrKH7KltEmmpbkT+iALJgNbCcnANUGJqjo2KyWFi/2ZMkzoj9J2fC8hSXQSEVoBO6EXBmnXpztEFefUU4CefVvHfOlgauTKVFbgbyxWke0e5zhOL3Vnkq7zThuDNiA5aCZi0wXLaqTAvEHiMrWb0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fONzS/VtK2z/ytxR2dHlLSrQZQbDWPe7x6cNMim6tgYAfJ2icgadEgxVmVAJ8hvuG/F5ZlZKTE0vNdX5CPLIMWglv/TFMbSuhz9OdBrN9Acjw4g1sOZxrrSglZHCRBzE1H1Au3/Iu0cfIO9p2/MuhLi/4JFx6vOYWcq17EcPkwI=; X-YMail-OSG: vfLWv6EVM1nPXNC7n2wLBUllczDBUrMKyUw9ZH9ETIpc580 3TXMCMNnhwH0cpF9xO8aSHlq.XTxPmBi3h9aSOY1VcCnVmc4OzBYe09GczI6 ssHPUIMfMkV6shwVmzsS2WQUcTBvpjvFUcZzxO3XUkxxgY7_EoVUIBRZvB8H YWFKWbL9nB46tMYZ5EL_575kMuZmvoUklJIdW9rsBpO5LtKGzgoe6nU7KQG6 bb5odGJPnqFDLBIE_zRROZfbxdLH7H1dd3.v.Dk0EQMbWnQqVdcEqeTGbQWQ Oj4oLinsidhnJNrnG54_tvSnt6Os7EGv5gv4AdTcfnMda8hRSQhhQ85OkefC ZJtgTW2ehKwsSL6UcQBylKgFpa1XLmKnk6DGMI3d_3E4bDhstuu32TUePxz2 ntAf_le.BXuTfXh7OU5pltL22 Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:41:28 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1311010888.49358.YahooMailNeo@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:41:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-752232946-1311010888=:49358" --0-752232946-1311010888=:49358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave,=0A=A0=0A=A0 Still waiting for the Turbo Starter to get here..........= .Probably by Wednesday as it is coming from=0Anear Ft Worth, Tx to Okla Cit= y...................So should know before long if the starter and ring gear= =0Amismatch can be solved with a simple starter change..............As of t= his moment have not heard =0Afrom the "ACT" flywheel=A0manuf. about the 9.8= lb flywheel ring gear teeth # but my bet is it is the =0Asame as the 13.8 = lb flywheel with 2 more lbs whittled off of it !!...............=0A=0AKelly= Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C= /EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A= =0AFrom: David Leonard =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraf= t =0ASent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:39 AM=0ASub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements=0A=0A= =0AThanks Scott,=0A=0AIf you are waiting for a definitive cause, you may ha= ve to wait for a long time.=A0 To me it is=A0pretty clear that the lighteni= ng holes allow flexing with the power pulses that will eventually lead to s= tress cracking.=A0 Those cracks started at the lightening holes and propaga= ted radially.=A0 That allowed escalating flexing that broke the ring around= the mounting bolts.=0A=0AMy philosophy lately=A0is that the best way to no= t have to re-do things over again, is to obviously over-do it from the star= t.=A0 Aircraft cooling systems are a good example.=A0 I also see having a l= ittle more weight in a flywheel as not too bad of a place to have weight.= =A0 It will help with=A0idle roughness, and help dampen power pulses - so I= am not worried about a few more pounds up there.=A0 I even would have no q= ualms with adding several pounds and=A0using the flywheel that Kelly found.= =A0 If only that solution has an easy answer to the starter problem.=0A=0AI= have no desire to try another 13B plate.=A0 If so many of them are cracked= and warped, there is a reason.=A0 They all started out new at some time.= =A0 Inspection is not easy.=A0 It requires taking off the oil cooler, inter= cooler, prop and spinner, oil lines to and from the gear box, then the gea= r box, then the damper plate, then the flex plate itself=A0before you can d= o any quality inspection.=A0 It needs to be removed because you cannot see = the mounting holes with the doubler plate in place.=A0 I am not interested = in having something in my plane that reminds me of the reliability of a cer= tified crank shaft=A0 :-)=0A=0ASwitching to an RX8 flex plate and adding an= adapter (which will also add stiffness) only adds a couple of pounds.=A0 T= he RX8 plate is thicker metal (.09 instead of .08) and does not have the li= ghtening holes that seem to have been at=A0the=A0root of my cracks.=A0 It i= s cheap ($160) and the ring gear fits perfectly.=A0=0A=0AI think Mazda was = having problems with the 13B plate and that is why they beefed it up for th= e Renisis.=0A=0A-- =0ADavid Leonard=0A=0ATurbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0Ahttp://N4= VY.RotaryRoster.net=0Ahttp://RotaryRoster.net=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, Jul 17, 2011 = at 10:31 PM, wrote:=0A=0AI just had another thought:=0A= >You might consider trying another 13b flexplate, but using a more comprehe= nsive test for cracks before you put it in service. =0A>Look the candidate = flexplates over with a magifying glass, then, if they pass, use dye penetra= nt test or magnetic particle testing?=0A>What I'm getting at here, is that = your failed unit may have been flawed before you put it in service. =0A>Aft= er finding a flex plate that passes, spend some time de-burring and polishi= ng the stress zones based on the failed flex plate's cracks; that is to say= , where you think the failures may have started.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>---= --Original Message-----=0A>From: David Leonard =0A>To:= Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Sun, Jul = 17, 2011 9:21 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flyw= heel measurements=0A>=0A>=0A>That is not a bad idea while I have it all apa= rt, as I have not changed them out yet.=A0 Inspection does not show anythin= g that looks like a smoking rivet.=0A>=0A>-- =0A>David Leonard=0A>=0A>Turbo= Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>http://RotaryRoster.ne= t=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Tracy wrote:=0A>=0A>a kelly wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>.Did you replace the=0A>>alumi= num rivets in your RD1X damper plate with steel bolts ?..............I seem= to remember that=0A>>you did after=A0several dampers (and yours)=A0experie= nced alum streaking around the rivets...........=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Ju= st FYI to the group, =A0the change I settled on for the damper rivets was t= o use -AD rivets instead of -A. =A0 The tensile strength is about 3 times h= igher on the -AD.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Tracy=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=0A>>On Jul= 17, 2011, at 4:45 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>.= Did you replace the =0A>>>aluminum rivets in your RD1X damper plate with st= eel bolts ?..............I seem to remember that =0A>>>you did after severa= l dampers (and yours)=A0experienced alum streaking around the rivets.......= ....=0A>=0A>=0A> --0-752232946-1311010888=:49358 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,
 
  Still waiting= for the Turbo Starter to get here...........Probably by Wednesday as it is= coming from
near Ft Worth, Tx to= Okla City...................So should know before long if the starter and = ring gear
mismatch can be solv= ed with a simple starter change..............= As of this moment have not heard
from the "ACT" flywh= eel manuf. about the 9.8 lb flywhee= l ring gear teeth # but my bet is it is the
same as the 13.8 lb = flywheel with 2 more lbs whittled off of= it !!...............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:39 AM
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measur= ements

Thanks Scott,
 
If you are waiting for a definitive cause, you may have to wait for a = long time.  To me it is pretty clear that the lightening holes al= low flexing with the power pulses that will eventually lead to stress crack= ing.  Those cracks started at the lightening holes and propagated radi= ally.  That allowed escalating flexing that broke the ring around the = mounting bolts.
 
My philosophy lately is that the best way to not have to re-do th= ings over again, is to obviously over-do it from the start.  Aircraft = cooling systems are a good example.  I also see having a little more w= eight in a flywheel as not too bad of a place to have weight.  It will= help with idle roughness, and help dampen power pulses - so I am not = worried about a few more pounds up there.  I even would have no qualms= with adding several pounds and using the flywheel that Kelly found.&n= bsp; If only that solution has an easy answer to the starter problem.
 
I have no desire to try another 13B plate.  If so many of them ar= e cracked and warped, there is a reason.  They all started out new at = some time.  Inspection is not easy.  It requires taking off the o= il cooler, inter cooler, prop and spinner, oil lines to and from the gear b= ox, then the gear box, then the damper plate, then the flex plate itself&nb= sp;before you can do any quality inspection.  It needs to be removed b= ecause you cannot see the mounting holes with the doubler plate in place.&n= bsp; I am not interested in having something in my plane that reminds me of= the reliability of a certified crank shaft  :-)
 
Switching to an RX8 flex plate and adding an adapter (which will also = add stiffness) only adds a couple of pounds.  The RX8 plate is thicker= metal (.09 instead of .08) and does not have the lightening holes that see= m to have been at the root of my cracks.  It is cheap ($160)= and the ring gear fits perfectly. 
 
I think Mazda was having problems with the 13B plate and that is why t= hey beefed it up for the Renisis.
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotary= Roster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
 
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 10:31 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
I just had another thought= :
You might consider trying another 13b flexplate, but using a more comp= rehensive test for cracks before you put it in service.
Look the candidate flexplates over with a magifying glass, then, if th= ey pass, use dye penetrant test or magnetic particle testing?
What I'm getting at here, is that your failed unit may have been flawe= d before you put it in service.
After finding a flex plate that passes, spend some time de-burring and= polishing the stress zones based on the failed flex plate's cracks; that i= s to say, where you think the failures may have started.



-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 9:21 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements

That is not a bad idea while I have it all apart, as I have not change= d them out yet.  Inspection does not show anything that looks like a s= moking rivet.
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotary= Roster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Trac= y <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:








--0-752232946-1311010888=:49358--