X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm25-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.184] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5053263 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:33:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.184; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.107] by nm25.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 23:32:37 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.85] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 23:32:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 23:32:37 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 287984.21455.bm@omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 2983 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Jul 2011 23:32:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1310772757; bh=QrZdpbqHcdR9/d5MvWpG5YexY4HZHalvoxEU2vL2erE=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=eSri89a/R+A1NknQ+kYypO0ACsObu2cXgxOlVKSe1c6hKMIZp6/vANPu47p2H4ITybT0ccLFhtXrpdZMsx76lxhT2375ZTd5vGwAg3HOLn8y6bN67efA0EF5YyQWD4etzQf5DJWdXvomUQVYKVuvDHaxfQuyX76MaKRYlAFvMRg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Bt6/S3XlsZwpFsgqwRTRhBlDtR1twrckYUrb8TKX8zvXyI9HcxBio8HsJ/oCeBsit0bpXctHUqFXr3VfTYv4OPbdsoroqZbvkwSFzYBinrFVOXsDyueESXU1AgPzxvQuHkraIGT+mS4hCgFJpGBUtt05P0mRUpsFXIZLJNEHiVY=; X-YMail-OSG: sy.RzV8VM1lRdfx7RPaS72sXyht9DJTSQj9a_O0NyhBUWIl PjK6mdHQurTP8dgkqTGi6ljSzShfNPxa6R4yeymlfYOEHiaWbKKKZshWMSZk 0_GrlLmwjwPjbWaeZDHCsNUdMcJ0jE04sIv.5G.at4W7ZZdYV5K3S_Tt9ByE mwYB4tL..5NvJhovtbOoAY.9M9roejYkfYNG5YcWY63R5Nrg5GVMe4I8RvN5 udGSPXoOioMARB9LBGpFQa.sILm_RoSWNkkVNfFdNOTWYYGErkhkRA5S_GD2 g_n_CcHkg6ilyrPA6g_32NH4TeafBSc21elVCaCs8yqPSC69NLdzjalPzsBr p_K8G3k5eXLNYcuOznl1KHqodmOP630SPd7z92sxk4fe2o9sSF0YRDDqfu.y 1_tNICdpHJvz_gcvGRctjbkksl5YROGULNmZ4fu9.6o.KJaphnD__GXUhOiy ZSnljHaCcWsiHsn2KAG2E_w6dJmpq Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:32:36 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1310772756.67520.YahooMailNeo@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:32:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1028604982-1310772756=:67520" --0-1028604982-1310772756=:67520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave , Tracy and All,=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lates= t update is that probably the substitution of a turbo starter should elimin= ate the apparent=0Aneed to add another starter ring gear on top of the "ACT= " flywheel I have on order since this flywheel=0Ais susposed to fit any 86-= 95 with=C2=A0Turbo flywheel (and starter)=C2=A0and 04-08 RX8 with=C2=A0manu= al trans......=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will keep all appraised of = what I find out when flywheel arrives..............=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DY= KE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"M= ISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Davi= d Leonard =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Friday, July 15, 2011 5:50 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements=0A=0A=0AThanks for chiming in Tr= acy.=C2=A0 I have also thought about making an intermediate plate for the R= X8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with a flywheel, but adapting the= RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind.=0A=0AAs far as light weight s= teel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weighs=C2=A018 lbs (including cou= nter weight)=C2=A0and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer found=C2=A0(and bought) = one on the Internet that weighs=C2=A013.8 lbs and is made of chome-molly-b = and sells for $205.=C2=A0 Of course, looks like either would require the ad= dition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and costing $80.=C2=A0= I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bought.=0A=0A-- =0ADav= id Leonard=0A=0ATurbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0Ahttp://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0Ahtt= p://RotaryRoster.net=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy wrote:=0A=0AI'm still in analysis mode on this myself.=0A= >=0A>So far the possibilities are:=0A>=0A>1. The flex plate may have been w= arped when installed=C2=A0 ( I bought several that were)=C2=A0 I think the = standard should be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexplate in view = of this failure.=0A>=0A>2.=C2=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when i= nstalled=C2=A0 (I also bought several that had cracks and they were not vis= ible unless you looked closely)=0A>=0A>3.=C2=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexp= lates) are not strong enough for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>I do N= OT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.=C2=A0 The RD-= 1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=C2=A0 There is no thrust l= oad at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.=0A>=0A= >I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B.=C2=A0 I have on= ly 55 hours on the 20B.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I'll be checking both.=C2=A0 I did = inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before installing.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>If = I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibilities. = =0A>=0A>1.=C2=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto = counterweight.=C2=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such = a thing)=0A>=0A>2.=C2=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made o= f aluminum or steel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=C2=A0 The= RX-8 version looks stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when goo= d RX-7 flexplates were getting hard to find. =C2=A0 I did not develop a for= mal procedure for doing this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=C2= =A0 Anybody with spare time out there want to take a closer look?=C2=A0 Hin= t: =C2=A0 The damper bolt pattern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 = torque converter bolt pattern.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Tracy Crook,=C2=A0=C2=A0 RWS = =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:=0A>=0A>Bill summed up what I=E2=80=99ve been thinking the l= ast few days. I=E2=80=99m not changing anything until Tracy makes a recomme= ndation. It could be fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of = round, worn rubber isolators or a combination of all these items. We may ne= ed a scheduled maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators = or other items that wear and loosen tolerances.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>= =C2=A0I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. = =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bobby Hughes=0A>>=C2=A0(playing with fiberglass again)=0A>>= From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Bill Bradburry=0A>>Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM=0A>>To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important= flywheel measurements=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>David,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I ca= n=E2=80=99t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not bro= ken.=C2=A0 I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that = doesn=E2=80=99t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem.=C2=A0 = That flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter= attached to it.=C2=A0 Think of the forces when a car under heavy accelerat= ion changes gear! As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it= is very strong.=C2=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward directions.=C2= =A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like = yours did.=C2=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you = should be looking at.=C2=A0 I suspect that if you check out the transmissio= n on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlle= d by thrust bearings or some such device.=C2=A0 Lynn may know the answer to= this??=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me.=C2= =A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from h= itting the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failu= re on the engine.=C2=A0 Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al= was discussing that will trap the shaft end play completely.=C2=A0 That, t= o me, makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.=C2=A0 If you strength= en the weak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is bec= ause that will be the next failure!=C2=A0 =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>This is a real op= portunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.=C2=A0 Please stud= y this a little more before you begin the fix!=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bill B=0A>>= =C2=A0=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of David Leonard=0A>>Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM=0A>= >To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the imp= ortant flywheel measurements=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I finally got to the hangar and= measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.=C2= =A0 The results are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be= to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I had to lea= ve to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sl= oppy... I make no guarantees.=C2=A0 The height measurements of the flex pla= te were particularly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and broken.= =0A>>=0A>>Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.=C2=A0 As we suspected, same siz= e, same tooth spacing.=0A>>=0A>>Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measured = from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means af= t in the CAR).=C2=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.29= 0 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=C2=A0 S= o the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=C2=A0 Thi= s is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thic= kness is .365 ...=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrep= ancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there = will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80= )=0A>>http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm=0A>>It may also be possible to fix = the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.=0A>>=0A>>Da= mper Plate Placement - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or a= ft) of the ring gear.=C2=A0 On the flex plate, the mounting surface is rece= ssed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works out.=C2= =A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which fly= wheel you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But o= n my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex p= late was 0.950.=C2=A0 Pretty damn close and given measurement error it migh= t me meant to be right on.=C2=A0 Or, any difference could be made up by tri= mming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers bet= ween the two.=0A>>=0A>>So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=C2=A0 St= out, easy to get, pick your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mount= ing holes and welding on a second gear ring.=0A>>=0A>>-- =0A>>David Leonard= =0A>>=0A>>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>>http:= //RotaryRoster.net=0A> --0-1028604982-1310772756=:67520 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave , Tracy and All,
 
   &n= bsp;   Latest update is that probably the substitution of a turbo= starter should eliminate the apparent
need to add another = starter ring gear on top of the "ACT" flywheel I have on order since this f= lywheel
is susposed to fit a= ny 86-95 with Turbo flywheel (and starter) and 04-08 RX8 with&nbs= p;manual trans......
   &n= bsp;  Will keep all appraised of what I find out when flywheel arrives= ..............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 5:50 PM
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements

Thanks for chiming in Tracy.  I have also thought about making an= intermediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with= a flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind.<= /DIV>
 
As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weig= hs 18 lbs (including counter weight) and costs $350, and Kelly Tr= oyer found (and bought) one on the Internet that weighs 13.8 lbs = and is made of chome-molly-b and sells for $205.  Of course, looks lik= e either would require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple = pounds and costing $80.  I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywh= eel he bought.
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotary= Roster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy = <rwstracy@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
I'm still in analysis mo= de on this myself.

So far the possibilities are:

1. The flex = plate may have been warped when installed  ( I bought several that wer= e)  I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble on t= he flexplate in view of this failure.

2.  The flexplate could h= ave had cracks when installed  (I also bought several that had cracks = and they were not visible unless you looked closely)

3.  The da= ng things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=  

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the i= nput shaft.  The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.&n= bsp; There is no thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft = imposed by the drive.   This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate= on my NA 13B.  I have only 55 hours on the 20B.   But I'll = be checking both.  I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before= installing. 

If I found that a change were necessary, I would= consider two possibilities.

1.  Use a modified aluminum racin= g flywheel used with an auto counterweight.  (Or possibly a lightweigh= t steel one if there is such a thing)

2.  Use an RX-8 flexplate= with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel sheet to go between the fl= explate and damper.  The RX-8 version looks stronger than the RX-7. I = briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates were getting hard to find. &= nbsp; I did not develop a formal procedure for doing this but it looked lik= e it would be pretty easy.  Anybody with spare time out there want to = take a closer look?  Hint:   The damper bolt pattern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern.
 
Tracy Crook,   RWS=20


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J= . Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill summed= up what I=E2=80=99ve been thinking the last few days. I=E2=80=99m not chan= ging anything until Tracy makes a recommendatio= n. It could be fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round,= worn rubber isolators or a combination of all these items. We may need a s= cheduled maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or oth= er items that wear and loosen tolerances.
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> I wil= l however be inspecting for this problem before most flights.
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bobby Hughe= s
 (playing with= fiberglass again)
From:<= /FONT> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of Bill Bradburr= y
Sent: Friday, July 15,= 2011 10:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel meas= urements
 
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">David,
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I can=E2=80= =99t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.&nb= sp; I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn= =E2=80=99t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem.  That = flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter atta= ched to it.  Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration c= hanges gear! As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is v= ery strong.  Not so much in the forward/rearward directions.  In = fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours d= id.  I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you should = be looking at.  I suspect that if you check out the transmission on th= e car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlled by th= rust bearings or some such device.  Lynn may know the answ= er to this??
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">That msg fr= om Al Wick really resonates with me.  Tracy had to install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting t= he bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on th= e engine.  Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was dis= cussing that will trap the shaft end play completely.  That, to me, ma= kes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.  If you strengthen the w= eak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is because tha= t will be the next failure! 
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This is a r= eal opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.  Pleas= e study this a little more before you begin the fix!
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill B
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbs= p;
From:<= /FONT> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of David Leonard=
Sent: Friday, July 15, = 2011 12:42 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
S= ubject: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measureme= nts
 
I finally got to the hangar and measured out = my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.  The results = are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swa= p, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my= daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make n= o guarantees.  The height measurements of the flex plate were particul= arly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.&nb= sp; As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measure= d from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means = aft in the CAR).  The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.= 290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.  So= the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.  This= is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thick= ness is .365 ...    So all we have to do to fix the discrepa= ncy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there w= ill be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)=
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to f= ix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.

<= B>Damper Plate Placement - On = the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear. = ; On the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the= ring gear. And it all pretty much works out.  That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how m= uch wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn= ) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.  Pr= etty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right o= n.  Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on= the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two.

So = in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.  Stout, easy to get, pick you= r weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a= second gear ring.

--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et





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