X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.78] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with SMTP id 4901324 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:37:20 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.78; envelope-from=bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net Received: from [98.138.90.53] by nm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2011 00:36:46 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.233] by tm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2011 00:36:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1048.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2011 00:36:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 799603.70270.bm@omp1048.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 87841 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2011 00:36:46 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bellsouth.net; s=s1024; t=1299717406; bh=E4YFymIFndCD9CuRZy0n6c4wEoDtrj88ApEfM2g+bro=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:From:To:References:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=sgmZGuhQoSzbgp8B3hZG2CdyrI16+0UR732fta7JtgQz//H5fEjiOUC66OvDmfFz4Lq2spjHasiV5G01RCz+4s0W6GIIqxS1K0MQQvqdDx+dVdErkp7VXxo3CqZUvGPGThqqx686K11JeWAqbdStgLbTWp0VfxMvSBMi3XVfW9g= Received: from acer7fbfa7e2f7 (bryanwinberry@98.88.53.127 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 09 Mar 2011 16:36:44 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: OSuEAS2swBAaBd4uKxevNivslbMG7JXpWjAWZVmoYyRm6qcW_W2VUA-- X-YMail-OSG: WARDJMAVM1kAvObJ3AhR6QRb6ZDFJmwK_4BrEQ_HWcNCTTj aOFnrlQl.ieNU3YP6eur43m.el3cWj.X.wlbZsabAv7CHf5j0u4Gneiq0Jq8 KSgocBEUmR7GGzq1AZy2d4NTcK2iEfJFdms0AtNH0cM01GsTHT9itHkZwtgQ RRVTBtFXk_i4iBZiJfFdbd5zb2K_4SeTwTSHWP1rB0Yk.h6bwR8tTGww_67i ks4AKHhKP8CWpo4PzomGxAQlqhjVz7QV57HxfV6gdCmL3ZNvNoAsUbYF.t5s kHSwAW7epQ_vDoauNDWFja2SjeiSVC2lvLo32bQY98ym6b4TYPMoSqp8JQlU D X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Bryan Winberry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: more staging and tuning Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:36:59 -0500 Message-ID: <88AF622DF24A43D9A3482158A6A867D2@acer7fbfa7e2f7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01CBDE91.5C535360" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcveqzKbS+2ku6cuRlKYnoHHUCmRDgAD5DpA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01CBDE91.5C535360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, Even though most of this is over my head a bit, thanks for your time and effort. Watching the tuning challenges can sometimes lead one to dread that upcoming phase. So, when someone offers a way of simplifying the process, it promotes optimism. Thanks, Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: more staging and tuning Tracy, Correcting for the effect of injector lag only under certain conditions is missing the whole point of making the correction at all. The dead time is constant and as a result, it affects the amount of fuel delivered under all conditions. The fact that the correction made by my hardware was so effective tells me that you have nailed the calculation of the amount of fuel required. All we have to do is actually deliver that amount of fuel. The secondary injectors are affected by their dead time also, and the larger they are, the more of an effect that dead time will have because the pulse width is smaller for the same amount of fuel delivered. The information that I've seen indicates that dead times are slightly different for different injectors but not by much. The 1.2 ms that I used is not a magic number, but using something in the neighborhood of the actual value is much better than leaving it out. Applying the dead time correction across the board removes the requirement to correct for it anywhere in the MAP table. Mode 6 then is needed only to compensate for the different flow rating of the secondary injectors rather than using the MAP table correction to compensate for a variable combination of flow rating and dead time (amoung other things) throughout the whole MAP table. I've attached an updated plot that clarifies the questions Ed asked. As can be seen, it took less than 30 seconds to go from an essentially default controller condition to one that worked well over the entire power range that I could attain. Adjusting mode 6 for the case of different sized secondaries would only add a few seconds to this procedure. I would expect that the tuning procedure would be equally effective no matter what sized injectors (within reason) were used as long as their dead times were taken into account. If it doesn't work this way, I'll eat my socks. What the heck.let's up the ante. I'll eat YOUR socks. Know that I'm smiling while writing this even though I might get a package from Shady Bend in the mail. Steve From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: more staging and tuning Interesting results Steve. I didn't think a simple across the board increase would be that effective. In view of your earlier results I made a minor change to the EC2/3 software to bump up the injector pulse width but only when the staging point is reached. This only applies to the setup for same sized primary & secondary injectors. With the much larger secondaries on the 4 port Renesis the mixture goes rich instead of lean at the staging point (unless Mode 6 is adjusted to compensate). I have not flight tested the change yet. Tracy ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01CBDE91.5C535360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve,

Even though most of this is over my = head a bit, thanks for your time and effort.  Watching the tuning = challenges can sometimes lead one to dread that upcoming phase.  So, when someone = offers a way of simplifying the process, it promotes = optimism.

Thanks,

=

Bryan

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Wednesday, March = 09, 2011 5:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = more staging and tuning

 

Tracy,

 

=

Correcting for the effect of = injector lag only under certain conditions is missing the whole point of making the correction at all.  The dead time is constant and as a result, it = affects the amount of fuel delivered under all conditions.  The fact that = the correction made by my hardware was so effective tells me that you have = nailed the calculation of the amount of fuel required.  All we have to do = is actually deliver that amount of fuel.  =

 

=

The secondary injectors are = affected by their dead time also, and the larger they are, the more of an effect = that dead time will have because the pulse width is smaller for the same amount of = fuel delivered.  The information that I’ve seen indicates that = dead times are slightly different for different injectors but not by much.  = The 1.2 ms that I used is not a magic number, but using something in the = neighborhood of the actual value is much better than leaving it = out.

 

=

Applying the dead time correction = across the board removes the requirement to correct for it anywhere in the MAP table.  Mode 6 then is needed only to compensate for the different = flow rating of the secondary injectors rather than using the MAP table = correction to compensate for a variable combination of flow rating and dead time = (amoung other things) throughout the whole MAP table.

 

=

I’ve attached an updated = plot that clarifies the questions Ed asked.  As can be seen, it took less = than 30 seconds to go from an essentially default controller condition to one = that worked well over the entire power range that I could attain.  = Adjusting mode 6 for the case of different sized secondaries would only add a few = seconds to this procedure.  I would expect that the tuning procedure would = be equally effective no matter what sized injectors (within reason) were = used as long as their dead times were taken into account.  =

 

=

If it doesn’t work this way, I’ll eat my socks.  What the heck…let’s up the ante… I’ll eat YOUR socks.  Know that I’m smiling = while writing this even though I might get a package from Shady Bend in the = mail.

 

=

Steve

 

=

 

=

  =  

 <= /o:p>

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Wednesday, March = 09, 2011 2:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = more staging and tuning

 

Interesting = results Steve.  I didn't think a simple across the board increase would be = that effective.  In view of your earlier results I made a minor change = to the EC2/3 software to bump up the injector pulse width but only when the = staging point is reached.   This only applies to the setup for same sized = primary & secondary injectors.  With the much larger secondaries on the = 4 port Renesis the mixture goes rich instead of lean at the staging point (unless  Mode 6 is adjusted to compensate).

I have not flight tested the change yet.

Tracy  =

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01CBDE91.5C535360--