X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm7-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.116] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4894101 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:14:05 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.116; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2011 23:13:29 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.77] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2011 23:13:29 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2011 23:13:29 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 468944.45783.bm@omp1014.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 32896 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Mar 2011 23:13:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1299539609; bh=DG4Qt89f96ePdL2KmgUM8ciBIG2uUndXSLxs1yTksTA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hUwAlFkSgJQiboj4v9nh13p1iyAAFhSfrneEctz68iVaXRD2fBqEWzAIGDHaMIjntaabIQVDE3yXAhR0bD2J/aPxk8oTg1t4zQD84iRqUWwnpPiYtj6tjCMIiPDpRNL7cb3LEr5QLgZja/q2zveVoiiWoIjtDklDWnRASVnLx2Q= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HPydl5rQ2q4SnMAASUUmeu5luYhPlFPrxrwtg9SnqQi+bqM1wWcRctG8hSbREsgOd8KWyAOsHn//NV67rl/8NmR/rqMfENdQSZEjKKGoAacQhFF2epCCPHsUl5WeNLZniTIlPILSVrvs+s5hDNGaKdJVS3OGyhNvbMRRnU7C9MM=; Message-ID: <223295.30637.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: xxRRlcgVM1nK4mtlEmMPcVsCPfWPGAGQx_uEiyBTkdD4kD4 l11p2_bXul_j8imtxnzv02lWHVMkREQeV8A1UZ11gnwZgiduHv2BNewe7uhg 1GTRGpDOTM7BaKAKXlARC.PTie5qHEVAB3BFWsfisIoSrc4QBQhils_bjnZ6 BcAo5jqL2YUTgu9o5jj6htoxBd5aE4JwXrrSZ_k71tlHzAXrAThcvTKpEDpr JekkUlUTikhOy6hwyds5ls3cjoulfWsIsB45av4SBB9ycOaKEr.YZHocFxSZ uX3ZEWnLSXw-- Received: from [208.114.45.26] by web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:13:29 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 15:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: For Lynn_Effect of Leaning & Timing for Turbo Rotary To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1937986021-1299539609=:30637" --0-1937986021-1299539609=:30637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn & William,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Appreciate all input on this subject= =A0from both of you.........This is =0Aa=A0lot of info to be=0Adigested for= someone unschooled=A0 in the technical side of this subject or =0Awithout = any=0Areal world experience..................The very detailed info present= ed by the =0A"TurboRX7"=0Asite is further enhanced by the more "Grassroot" = explanation by Lynn which is =0Amore=0Aeasily understood=A0 for some of the= group...............Especially those of us =0Athat plan on=0Aa=A0"Turbocha= rged" 13B or 20B for their project..............IMHO=0A=0AMany Thanks to Bo= th Willian and Lynn,=A0=0A=A0=A0=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Even= tually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________= ____________=0AFrom: William Wilson =0ATo: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft =0ASent: Mon, March 7, 2011 1= :53:39 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: For Lynn_Effect of Leaning & Timing fo= r Turbo Rotary=0A=0AI would agree with this post 100%.=A0 I only disagreed = with the idea that leaner =0Amixtures would act to increase effective knock= resistance under certain =0Aconditions, but Lynn isn't saying that, so I'm= not disagreeing :)=0A=0AOn Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, wrote:=0A=0AIn a message dated 3/6/2011 1:11:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Ti= me, keltro@att.net =0Awrites:=0A>Lynn,=0A>>=0A>>=A0=A0=A0 From your previou= s posts on this subject it seems that the Rotary does not =0A>>react in the= exact=A0same way as a typical=0A>>piston engine to leaning and or timing c= hanges...................William has =0A>>used as reference a very detailed= piece from=0A>>http://www.turborx7.com/fuel.htm=A0(excerpt above) that he = feels challenges =0A>>previous info that you have posted and=0A>>that I men= tioned from memory so I=A0may not have related it =0A>>accurately..........= .Would appreciate=A0your additional thoughts=0A>>about this and any correct= ions if I misspoke.........(Tracy posted recently that =0A>>his EC2-3 does = retard ignition timing as=0A>>boost increases < up to12 degrees>)..........= ......=0A>>=0A>>Thanks,=0A>>=0A>>=A0Kelly Troyer=0A>>=0A>=0A>I just reread = this and am having difficulty finding the differences between =0A>data. Exc= ept that I explain it much better.=0A>=0A>It is nice to look back to my 14 = year old motor head readings of anything =0A>published in any hot rod magaz= ine. =0A>=0A>=0A>It also points out that the systems used to establish long= used methods of test =0A>in fuels have long ago been superceded by modern = systems and practices. The two =0A>base systems (one from Kettering's labs = in Dayton Ohio) are still referred to on =0A>fuel pumps everywhere. I would= be surprized to find similar equipment out side =0A>of a museum.=0A>=0A>Yo= u would think that we would know all there is to know about oil by now, but= we =0A>know very little. For example, the discovery of Bucky balls. (Not a= result of =0A>never washing you supporter). And Fullerines, both named aft= er R. Buckminster =0A>Fuller, of dome fame. Carbon structures under our nos= es for billions of years =0A>and just now discovered.=0A>=0A>http://scifun.= chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/buckball/buckball.html=0A>=0A>Saying that 6 degrees = of advance does one thing and 10 degrees does this other =0A>thing leaves a= library of data left off the table. Those numbers are typical of =0A>initi= al advance settings for distributors clear back to points days. A valid =0A= >statement if the full 600 parameters are also listed for each test. =0A>= =0A>=0A>Also, saying that 13:1 or 13.4:1 detonates more readily than 12:1 i= s accurate if =0A>all test conditions are duplicated exactly. I could drive= my 14.4:1 compression =0A>racer all over the paddock on 97 octane fuel wit= hout detonation. But I know that =0A>inlet air temperature and cylinder fil= ling are test parameters that I can =0A>control.=0A>=0A>This is the type of= generalization that just adds confusion. For example, a =0A>lightly loaded= =A0engine of any type running in the mid range of its parameters can =0A>be= leaned from too rich to run all the way to lean cutoff with no damage of a= ny =0A>kind. =0A>=0A>=0A>Detonation requires lots of energy, so we need lot= s of fuel to make lots of =0A>heat, and that requires lots of air, so that = means close to wide open throttle. =0A>Small throttle openings means poor c= ylinder filling and low effective =0A>compression ratio and almost no chanc= e of detonation. =A0=0A>=0A>The same system used to produce motor fuels is = going on inside the combustion =0A>chamber on every ignition event. But we = start with base stocks that are lighter =0A>and easy to light, instead of b= lack goop.=0A>=0A>So we light the fuel and a ball of fire starts at the plu= g tip, and radiant =0A>energy booms out from this event heating mixture ahe= ad of the flame front. So =0A>the flame front accelerates (Hotter mixture b= urns faster) adding more energy to =0A>the unburned mixture and compressing= that mixture at ever increasing rates into =0A>an ever decreasing volume. = While this is going on=0A>your little refining operation is cracking up bra= nd new chemicals for the flame =0A>front to consume. Chemicals with long na= mes and longer diagrams. Most of your =0A>new chemicals will last only Pico= seconds, Some will exit the engine intact. Some =0A>will combine with oxyge= n and vanish adding heat, some will absorb heat and =0A>become bigger longe= r chains, that slow the flame front. =0A>=0A>=0A>So if we start this proces= s early (More advance) the results happen sooner in =0A>the crank rotation.= The process will be hotter (Having burned longer) for each =0A>degree of c= rank rotation. All of the process will be hotter and move faster. So =0A>as= far as mixture strength is concerned the closer to the fastest flame speed= we =0A>get the more critical every operational parameter gets to detonatio= n. When we =0A>say "lean it out" we have to start at some number and are th= en suggesting moving =0A>to another number with fewer parts of fuel per cub= ic foot of air. =0A>=0A>=0A>So in the case where we are just one or two par= ameters away from detonation, and =0A>we then lean to a number that provide= s a higher flame speed, then we achieve =0A>detonation. But you need a larg= e number of items to be in or near the red line =0A>before just one more ch= ange gets you to detonation. =0A>=0A>=0A>So the wives tale is: I leaned it = out just a bit, and it went soft (revs dropped =0A>off) and the apex seals = are in the muffler. Or, in piston engines: the oil pump =0A>locked up from = pieces of piston getting through the screen.=0A>=0A>So leaning destroys eng= ines, is that correct?=A0 NO=0A>=0A>Advancing the ignition does not in itse= lf cause detonation. Leaning the mixture =0A>does not in itself cause deton= ation. Low octane fuel in itself does not cause =0A>detonation. High intake= air temperatures do not alone=A0cause detonation. Rapid =0A>throttle openi= ng in itself does not cause detonation. High load, low RPM, wide =0A>open t= hrottle alone does not cause detonation. High oil or water temperatures do = =0A>not alone cause detonation.=0A>=0A>The NA rotary has a large cold combu= stion chamber. It has no good squish areas, =0A>so fuel droplets tend to fo= rm near the apex seals, further cooling the chamber. =0A>And leading to poo= r BSFC and high HC. But this helps prevent detonation. The =0A>fire goes ou= t because droplets do not burn worth a damn, and show up as high EGT =0A>as= they find excess oxygen to join up with just about where your EGT probes a= re =0A>mounted. =0A>=0A>=0A>So it is difficult to detonate a rotary. Unless= you really want to. So, if you =0A>really want to, here are some tips. =0A= >=0A>Let the oil temperature get real high, well over 200 degrees. High rot= or face =0A>temps and no more cold chamber (Ace in the hole) for you. Let t= he water =0A>temperature get well over 180 degrees, same as high oil temps.= Add way more =0A>advance than is required. The rotor moves slowly over TDC= , and needs very little =0A>ignition advance.=0A>=0A>Use last years lawn mo= wer gas. It has some kind of oil in it right? =0A>=0A>Use rapid throttle mo= vements on very hot days from low RPM. If it still won't =0A>detonate, as a= last resort, add a turbo charger and do all of the above. Ouch, =0A>that w= orked didn't it?=0A>=0A>Lean of peak EGT operation: once lean of Peak EGT, = we have more oxygen than =0A>needed, and it absorbs energy so combustion te= mps start down along with less =0A>energy from=A0the leaner fuel mixture. S= o leaning makes things cooler once past =0A>peak EGT. So, once again, Leani= ng does not alone cause detonation.=0A>=0A>Rules is rules. Screw with mothe= r nature, and she will screw with you.=A0=0A>=0A>Lynn E. Hanover=A0=0A --0-1937986021-1299539609=:30637 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Lynn & William,
=0A
   =     Appreciate all input on this subject from both of y= ou.........This is a lot of info to be
=0A
digested for someo= ne unschooled  in the technical side of this subject or without any=0A
real world experience..................The very detailed info pr= esented by the "TurboRX7"
=0A
site is further enhanced by the more= "Grassroot" explanation by Lynn which is more
=0A
easily understo= od  for some of the group...............Especially those of us that pl= an on
=0A
a "Turbocharged" 13B or 20B for their project......= ........IMHO
=0A
 
=0A
Many Thanks to Both Willian a= nd Lynn, 
=0A
   =
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONET= ICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: William Wilson <fluffysheap@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Sent:<= /B> Mon, March 7, 2011 1:53:39 AM
S= ubject: [FlyRotary] Re: For Lynn_Effect of Leaning & Timing = for Turbo Rotary

I would agree with this post 100%.  I o= nly disagreed with the idea that leaner mixtures would act to increase effe= ctive knock resistance under certain conditions, but Lynn isn't saying that= , so I'm not disagreeing :)

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, <Lehanover@aol.com>= wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
In a message dated 3/6/2011 1:11:45 P.M. Eastern Stan= dard Time, keltro@att.net writes:
=0A=0A
Lynn,
=0A
 
=0A
 &nbs= p;  From your previous posts on this subject it seems that the Rotary = does not react in the exact same way as a typical
=0A
piston = engine to leaning and or timing changes...................William has used = as reference a very detailed piece from
=0A
http://www.turborx7.com/fuel.htm<= /FONT> (excerpt above) that he feels challenges previous info that= you have posted and
=0A
that I mentioned from memory so I ma= y not have related it accurately...........Would appreciate your addit= ional thoughts
=0A
about this and any corrections if I misspoke...= ......(Tracy posted recently that his EC2-3 does retard ignition timing as<= /DIV>=0A
boost increases < up to12 degrees>)................=0A
 
=0A
Thanks,
=0A
 
=0A
 = ;Kelly Troyer
=0A
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
I just reread this and am having difficulty finding t= he differences between data. Except that I explain it much better.
=0A=
 
=0A
It is nice to look back to my 14 year old motor he= ad readings of anything published in any hot rod magazine.
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
It also points out that the systems used to establish lon= g used methods of test in fuels have long ago been superceded by modern sys= tems and practices. The two base systems (one from Kettering's labs in Dayt= on Ohio) are still referred to on fuel pumps everywhere. I would be surpriz= ed to find similar equipment out side of a museum.
=0A
 =0A
You would think that we would know all there is to know about oil = by now, but we know very little. For example, the discovery of Bucky balls.= (Not a result of never washing you supporter). And Fullerines, both named = after R. Buckminster Fuller, of dome fame. Carbon structures under our nose= s for billions of years and just now discovered.
=0A
 
= =0A
http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/buckball/buckball.html
= =0A
 
=0A
Saying that 6 degrees of advance does one thing= and 10 degrees does this other thing leaves a library of data left off the= table. Those numbers are typical of initial advance settings for distribut= ors clear back to points days. A valid statement if the full 600 parameters= are also listed for each test.
=0A
 
=0A
Also, say= ing that 13:1 or 13.4:1 detonates more readily than 12:1 is accurate if all= test conditions are duplicated exactly. I could drive my 14.4:1 compressio= n racer all over the paddock on 97 octane fuel without detonation. But I kn= ow that inlet air temperature and cylinder filling are test parameters that= I can control.
=0A
 
=0A
This is the type of genera= lization that just adds confusion. For example, a lightly loaded engin= e of any type running in the mid range of its parameters can be leaned from= too rich to run all the way to lean cutoff with no damage of any kind. =0A
 
=0A
Detonation requires lots of energy, so we ne= ed lots of fuel to make lots of heat, and that requires lots of air, so tha= t means close to wide open throttle. Small throttle openings means poor cyl= inder filling and low effective compression ratio and almost no chance of d= etonation.  
=0A
 
=0A
The same system used to = produce motor fuels is going on inside the combustion chamber on every igni= tion event. But we start with base stocks that are lighter and easy to ligh= t, instead of black goop.
=0A
 
=0A
So we light the = fuel and a ball of fire starts at the plug tip, and radiant energy booms ou= t from this event heating mixture ahead of the flame front. So the flame fr= ont accelerates (Hotter mixture burns faster) adding more energy to the unb= urned mixture and compressing that mixture at ever increasing rates into an= ever decreasing volume. While this is going on
=0A
your little re= fining operation is cracking up brand new chemicals for the flame front to = consume. Chemicals with long names and longer diagrams. Most of your new ch= emicals will last only Picoseconds, Some will exit the engine intact. Some = will combine with oxygen and vanish adding heat, some will absorb heat and = become bigger longer chains, that slow the flame front.
=0A
 = ;
=0A
So if we start this process early (More advance) the results= happen sooner in the crank rotation. The process will be hotter (Having bu= rned longer) for each degree of crank rotation. All of the process will be = hotter and move faster. So as far as mixture strength is concerned the clos= er to the fastest flame speed we get the more critical every operational pa= rameter gets to detonation. When we say "lean it out" we have to start at s= ome number and are then suggesting moving to another number with fewer part= s of fuel per cubic foot of air.
=0A
 
=0A
So in th= e case where we are just one or two parameters away from detonation, and we= then lean to a number that provides a higher flame speed, then we achieve = detonation. But you need a large number of items to be in or near the red l= ine before just one more change gets you to detonation.
=0A
 = ;
=0A
So the wives tale is: I leaned it out just a bit, and it wen= t soft (revs dropped off) and the apex seals are in the muffler. Or, in pis= ton engines: the oil pump locked up from pieces of piston getting through t= he screen.
=0A
 
=0A
So leaning destroys engines, is= that correct?  NO
=0A
 =0A
Advancing the ignition does not in itself cause detonation. Lean= ing the mixture does not in itself cause detonation. Low octane fuel in its= elf does not cause detonation. High intake air temperatures do not alone&nb= sp;cause detonation. Rapid throttle opening in itself does not cause detona= tion. High load, low RPM, wide open throttle alone does not cause detonatio= n. High oil or water temperatures do not alone cause detonation.
=0A 
=0A
The NA rotary has a large cold combustion chamber. I= t has no good squish areas, so fuel droplets tend to form near the apex sea= ls, further cooling the chamber. And leading to poor BSFC and high HC. But = this helps prevent detonation. The fire goes out because droplets do not bu= rn worth a damn, and show up as high EGT as they find excess oxygen to join= up with just about where your EGT probes are mounted.
=0A
 =
=0A
So it is difficult to detonate a rotary. Unless you really wa= nt to. So, if you really want to, here are some tips.
=0A
Let the= oil temperature get real high, well over 200 degrees. High rotor face temp= s and no more cold chamber (Ace in the hole) for you. Let the water tempera= ture get well over 180 degrees, same as high oil temps. Add way more advanc= e than is required. The rotor moves slowly over TDC, and needs very little = ignition advance.
=0A
 
=0A
Use last years lawn mowe= r gas. It has some kind of oil in it right?
=0A
 
=0AUse rapid throttle movements on very hot days from low RPM. If it still = won't detonate, as a last resort, add a turbo charger and do all of the abo= ve. Ouch, that worked didn't it?
=0A
 
=0A
Lean of p= eak EGT operation: once lean of Peak EGT, we have more oxygen than needed, = and it absorbs energy so combustion temps start down along with less energy= from the leaner fuel mixture. So leaning makes things cooler once pas= t peak EGT. So, once again, Leaning does not alone cause detonation.
= =0A
 
=0A
Rules is rules. Screw with mother nature, and s= he will screw with you. 
=0A
 
=0A
Lynn E. Hano= ver 

--0-1937986021-1299539609=:30637--