X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTPS id 4893072 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:42:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.50; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wwb31 with SMTP id 31so3547498wwb.7 for ; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:42:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VAkC7oYjbdwnk3DtsUa+EEiRpbxu16V5qQYJ/vGO2UQ=; b=G+KXkJRP1vkeaiTlVbVZPiPetSIkp2I2EritLv/LcLtBJ5Sb21cKf8ypqbLpeU7EMT KPDye8EP2he+QEtf+9YAOFijn2iqFuz7QdHbQZo70I2oHeru9wRBFu5uaGt6vord6wup Qa7oiGOzNFiT4f23fPGBfQYsuXBiXr4slvPDM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=s6Mgq8zrTK6Jdt89AL+6me1SaPsiU7aUCxuGheafyp7VftqrTC2VGwqfb4YK7/Chqa zmMxIGTfFD37FYov0OECRXVDAn4u2oDZXQZPs36Z0SCUxTuk+lChL75tVn8gUfAlm+7j 1dacU041JR4osXoEx9O6kfk9wT3CF5z3XueFI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.243.195 with SMTP id k45mr3136034wer.66.1299462130457; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:42:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.230.215 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Mar 2011 17:42:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:42:10 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Q6Cclffv4X8EhFQjbAuziKyp4B0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e43ce69af635c049dda9a76 --e0cb4e43ce69af635c049dda9a76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *With this scenario, would you try and adjust the post stage area using Mod= e 1 or 9, or would you first lower the fuel injector flow rate using Mode 3? If the rate is lowered, it would put the below stage area pretty close to the max to adjust it. Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I think) in the neighborhood of -25 to -50*. With that much difference pre & post staging, I'd start from scratch (reset all modes default) then adjust mode 3 (at wot), Mode 2 (at minimum MP) and Mode 6 (for minimum mixture change at staging) in that order. Then and only then would I adjust Mode 1/9. Tracy On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Bill Bradburry wr= ote: > Brian, > > > > If what I found today turns out to be the total problem, you are going to > be happy! > > First let me say that I installed the valve in my heater hose as was > suggested by Tracy. What would you expect when you work with hose > clamps..right=85a leak! So I think that I got that fixed today. Hope!, = Hope! > > > > I taxied out on the ramp so I could discover the leak and ran the engine = up > and down the scale. It was pretty fine below the staging point and then = I > discovered that it was going rich above the staging point. I could turn > the mixture back to about 9:30-10 oclock and it would stop missing! > > > > I have swapped out the stock red, blue injectors for all four yellow > injectors. As I recall, the red are good for about 200 CC and the blue f= or > about 500 CC. The yellow are good for about 350 CC. this means that eit= her > setup will give about the same total output at full bore. But the yellow > give much more juice below staging than the two red would. I have cleare= d > the large secondary mode. > > > > Looking at my MAP table, if find that the prior to stage area is running > pretty consistently around +80. The after stage area is pretty consisten= tly > running around Zero to -15. The after stage area is too rich and needs t= o > be lowered. > > > > Tracy, > > > > With this scenario, would you try and adjust the post stage area using Mo= de > 1 or 9, or would you first lower the fuel injector flow rate using Mode 3= ? > If the rate is lowered, it would put the below stage area pretty close to > the max to adjust it. Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I thin= k) > in the neighborhood of -25 to -50. > > > > If I don=92t have a water leak in the morning, I will try leaning and fly= ing > with it like it is. Perhaps letting it learn using Mode 9.. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *bktrub@aol.com > *Sent:* Sunday, March 06, 2011 1:45 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. > > > > Bill, you are describing what is happening with my engine exactly. Pleas= e > find out what is going on with it so you'll save me the trouble. : ) > > > > Brian Trubee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Bradburry > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 6:20 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. > > Tracy, > > > > Last upgrade was 7 Nov 07. for both the EC-2 and EM-2. I am not certain > what was done or when the CAS terminator would have been done??? > > > > Bill > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [*mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net*] > *On Behalf Of *Tracy > > *Sent:* Sunday, March 06, 2011 8:39 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. > > > > Hi Bill, > When you just need a quick check of differential on EGTs, glance at the E= GT > bar graphs on the main page of EM2. If the bars are close to the same > height you know they're OK. Each of the segments on the bars represents > about 20 degrees F. One or 2 segments is not a problem, if there is a > rotor differential problem bad enough to cause a miss due to mixture or > ignition, it will be well over 100 degrees in difference, i.e. it will b= e > obvious. Remember which bar was the low one and that will tell you whic= h > rotor to start looking at. > > One other thought: Since you are running the Renesis, did you have the > EC2 upgraded with the Renesis CAS terminator? Don't know if you were > following the thread when that was being discussed a couple of years ago. > The EC2 was originally designed for the 2nd gen CAS and the Renesis was > different enough to need a change. High speed miss or hard starting were > the symptoms. > > Tracy > > On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Bill Bradburry <*bbradburry@bellsouth.net= *> > wrote: > > Mark, > > The car the engine came from had about 1400 miles on it. I have run abou= t > 40 gallons of gas thru it. I will have to check the coils for darkening. > Also same for plug wires. I am using the stock Renesis plugs. I might t= ry > cleaning them. > > > > On a previous occasion, I flooded the engine and it would not start till = I > sand blasted the plugs. After that it started normally. > > > > This problem just happened on the second takeoff. The engine was running > smoothly at all rpms till I made the second takeoff. It started to miss = and > pop and the rpm would only go to about 6300. after I got in the air, I > dialed the prop back and the rpm was around 6000 and the engine smoothed = out > again and was ok the rest of the flight. Now it is missing on the ground > above the staging point. I have mine set at 16 inches. > > I watched the mixture and it seems fine on both sides of the staging poin= t > and also on up in the higher rpms. The only difference is that the engin= e > starts to miss.erratically. I didn=92t notice the EGT as Tracy suggested= . I > need to switch to the page that shows the temp of both of them and check > that today. > > > > Bill > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:*flyrotary@lancaironline.net*] > *On Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:50 PM > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. > > > > Bill, > > > > How do the coils look (underneath)? Are there dark areas in the potting > material where they have gotten hot? There is a history of coil failures= in > the RX-8's after about 30k miles. > > > > How many hours on the plugs/wires? How do they look? > > > > Mark > > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Bill Bradburry <*bbradburry@bellsouth.net= *> > wrote: > > Mark, > > > > I have the stock Renesis coils. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:*flyrotary@lancaironline.net*] > *On Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2011 6:19 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. > > > > Bill, > > > > Which coils are you running? I chased an intermittent miss which occurre= d > in the 6000 -7000 range. I upgraded to the LS2 "Yukon" coils and the mis= s > was gone. > > > > Mark S. > > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Bill Bradburry <*bbradburry@bellsouth.net= *> > wrote: > > I have developed a miss above the staging point. The fuel pressure seems > ok, the mixture also seems ok. I am at a loss. > > > > To try and troubleshoot, I am considering getting above the staging point > and disabling the primaries and secondaries to see if I can identify whic= h > is the cause. Since it runs ok below the stage, I assume it is not the > primaries. > > > > I recently changed my fuel filters and installed a large canister filter. > There seems a possibility that I introduced some contamination that clog= ged > an injector. Other wise it seems it must be spark related. This just > happened one flight ago. The engine was running fine, till that last > takeoff. It was missing and would only get about 6300 rpm. After take o= ff, > I turned the prop back and slowed the engine down to below that number an= d > it smoothed out and ran fine the res of the flight. Today while taxiing > around, I noticed that the miss was back. > > > > Opinions welcomed. > > > > Bill B > > > > > > > > > > > --e0cb4e43ce69af635c049dda9a76 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With this scenario, would you try = and adjust the post stage area using Mode 1 or 9, or would you first lower the = fuel injector flow rate using Mode 3?=A0 If the rate is lowered, it would put th= e below stage area pretty close to the max to adjust it.=A0 Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I think) in the neighborhood of -25 to -50.

With that much difference pre & post staging, I'd start f= rom scratch (reset all modes default) then adjust mode 3 (at wot), Mode 2= =A0 (at minimum MP) and Mode 6 (for minimum mixture change at staging) in t= hat order. =A0 Then and only then would I adjust Mode 1/9.

Tracy

On Sun, Mar 6, 20= 11 at 7:20 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Brian,<= /font>

=A0

If what I foun= d today turns out to be the total problem, you are going to be happy!

First let me s= ay that I installed the valve in my heater hose as was suggested by Tracy.=A0 What would you expect= when you work with hose clamps..right=85a leak!=A0 So I think that I got that fixed today.=A0 Hope!, Hope!

=A0

I taxied out o= n the ramp so I could discover the leak and ran the engine up and down the scale.=A0 It was prett= y fine below the staging point and then I discovered that it was going rich a= bove the staging=A0 point.=A0 I could turn the mixture back to about 9:30-10 oclock and it would stop missing!=A0

=A0

I have swapped= out the stock red, blue injectors for all four yellow injectors.=A0 As I recall, the red are good for about 200 CC and the blue for about 500 CC.=A0 The yellow are good for about 350 CC.=A0 this means that either setup will give about the same tota= l output at full bore.=A0 But the yellow give much more juice below staging than the two red would.=A0 I have cleared the large secondary mode.<= /font>

=A0

Looking at my = MAP table, if find that the prior to stage area is running pretty consistently around +80.=A0 The after stage area is pretty consistently running around Zero to -15.=A0 The after stage area is too rich and needs to be lowered.

=A0

Tracy,

=A0

With this scen= ario, would you try and adjust the post stage area using Mode 1 or 9, or would you first lower the = fuel injector flow rate using Mode 3?=A0 If the rate is lowered, it would put th= e below stage area pretty close to the max to adjust it.=A0 Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I think) in the neighborhood of -25 to -50.

=A0

If I don=92t h= ave a water leak in the morning, I will try leaning and flying with it like it is.=A0 Perhaps letti= ng it learn using Mode 9..

=A0

Bill B<= /font>

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bk= trub@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 20= 11 1:45 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: M= iss above staging point.

=A0

=A0Bill, you= are describing what is happening with my engine exactly. Please find out what is going on with it = so you'll save me the trouble. : )

=A0

Brian Trubee

=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 6:20 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point.

Tracy,

=A0

Last upgrade w= as 7 Nov 07. for both the EC-2 and EM-2.=A0 I am not certain what was done or when the CAS terminator would have been done???=A0

Bill

=A0

= From:mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf= Of Tracy


Sent: Sunday, March 06, 20= 11 8:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: M= iss above staging point.

=A0

Hi Bill,=A0

When you just need a quick check of differential on EGTs, glance at the EGT= bar graphs on the main page of EM2.=A0 If the bars are close to the same height you know they're OK.=A0 Each of the segments on the bars represents abo= ut 20 degrees F. =A0 One or 2 segments is not a problem, if there is a rotor differential problem bad enough to cause a miss due to mixture or ignition,= it will be well over 100 degrees in difference, i.e.=A0 it will be obvious.=A0=A0 Remember which bar was the low one and that will tell you which rotor to start looking at.

One other thought:=A0=A0 Since you are running the Renesis,=A0 did you have the EC2 upgraded with the Renesis CAS terminator?=A0 Don't know if= you were following the thread when that was being discussed a couple of years ago.=A0 The EC2 was originally designed for the 2nd gen CAS and the Renesis was different enough to need a change.=A0 High speed miss or hard starting were the symptoms.

Tracy

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 a= t 8:14 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.= net> wrote:

Mark,

The car the en= gine came from had about 1400 miles on it.=A0 I have run about 40 gallons of gas thru it.=A0 I will have to check the coils for darkening.=A0 Also same for plug wires.=A0 I am using the stock Renesis plugs.=A0 I might try cleaning them.

=A0

On a previous = occasion, I flooded the engine and it would not start till I sand blasted the plugs.=A0 After that it started normally.<= /span>

=A0

This problem j= ust happened on the second takeoff.=A0 The engine was running smoothly at all rpms till I made the second takeoff.=A0 It started to miss and pop and the rpm would only go to about 6300.=A0 after I got in the air, I dialed the prop back and the rpm was around 6000 and the engine smoothed out again and was ok the rest of th= e flight.=A0 Now it is missing on the ground above the staging point.=A0 I have mine set at 16 inches.

I watched the = mixture and it seems fine on both sides of the staging point and also on up in the higher rpms.=A0 The only difference is that the engine starts to miss.erratically.=A0 I didn=92t notice the EGT as Tracy suggested.=A0 I need to switch to the page that shows the temp of both of them and check that today.

=A0

Bill

=A0

= From:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf = Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, March 05, = 2011 9:50 PM=


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: M= iss above staging point.<= /span>

=A0

Bill,=A0

=A0

How do the coils look= (underneath)? =A0Are there dark areas in the potting material where they have gotten hot? =A0There is a history of coil failures in the RX-8's after about 30k mi= les. =A0 =A0=

=A0

How many hours on the= plugs/wires? =A0How do they look?<= /span>

=A0

Mark =A0

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 a= t 8:36 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.= net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

I have the sto= ck Renesis coils.

=A0

Bill B<= /font>

=A0

= From:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf = Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, March 05, = 2011 6:19 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: M= iss above staging point.<= /span>

=A0

Bill,=A0

=A0

Which coils are you r= unning? =A0I chased an intermittent miss which occurred in the 6000 -7000 range. =A0I upgraded to the LS2 "Yukon" coils and the miss was gone. =A0

=A0

Mark S.=

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 a= t 4:56 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.= net> wrote:

I have develop= ed a miss above the staging point.=A0 The fuel pressure seems ok, the mixture also seems ok.=A0 I am at a loss.

=A0

To try and tro= ubleshoot, I am considering getting above the staging point and disabling the primaries and secondaries= to see if I can identify which is the cause.=A0 Since it runs ok below the stage, I assume it is not the primaries.

=A0

I recently cha= nged my fuel filters and installed a large canister filter.=A0 There seems a possibility =A0that I introduced some contamination that clogged an injector.=A0 Other wise it seems it must be spark related.=A0 This just happened one flight ago.=A0 The engine was running fine, till that last takeoff.=A0 It was missing and would only get about 6300 rpm.=A0 After take off, I turned the prop back an= d slowed the engine down to below that number and it smoothed out and ran fin= e the res of the flight.=A0 Today while taxiing around, I noticed that the miss was back.=

=A0

Opinions welco= med.

=A0

Bill B<= /font>

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0


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