X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4893040 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:01:15 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.40; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p2710K1D011543 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:00:20 -0500 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.c75.7aef7f26 (55731) for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.152]) by cia-md03.mx.aol.com (v129.9) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD036-5bc24d742e1d398; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:00:15 -0500 Received: from Webmail-m110 (webmail-m110.sim.aol.com [64.12.232.218]) by smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com (v129.9) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDB011-5bc24d742e1d398; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:00:13 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:00:13 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 69.84.254.253 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDAA7A260C7344_14A8_4495D_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33356-STANDARD Received: from 69.84.254.253 by Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com (64.12.232.218) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:00:12 -0500 Message-Id: <8CDAA7A26008C5F-14A8-205D3@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDAA7A260C7344_14A8_4495D_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Bill, That sounds pretty encouraging. I have 28 lb primaries and 40 lb secondari= es, but I forget what colors they are. Do you know the lb rating for the= red, blue and yellow injectors? Also, what was your source for the inject= ors and what is the price? Thanks, Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 4:20 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. Brian, =20 If what I found today turns out to be the total problem, you are going to= be happy! First let me say that I installed the valve in my heater hose as was sugge= sted by Tracy. What would you expect when you work with hose clamps..righ= t=E2=80=A6a leak! So I think that I got that fixed today. Hope!, Hope! =20 I taxied out on the ramp so I could discover the leak and ran the engine= up and down the scale. It was pretty fine below the staging point and th= en I discovered that it was going rich above the staging point. I could= turn the mixture back to about 9:30-10 oclock and it would stop missing!= =20 =20 I have swapped out the stock red, blue injectors for all four yellow injec= tors. As I recall, the red are good for about 200 CC and the blue for abo= ut 500 CC. The yellow are good for about 350 CC. this means that either= setup will give about the same total output at full bore. But the yellow= give much more juice below staging than the two red would. I have cleare= d the large secondary mode. =20 Looking at my MAP table, if find that the prior to stage area is running= pretty consistently around +80. The after stage area is pretty consisten= tly running around Zero to -15. The after stage area is too rich and need= s to be lowered. =20 Tracy, =20 With this scenario, would you try and adjust the post stage area using Mod= e 1 or 9, or would you first lower the fuel injector flow rate using Mode= 3? If the rate is lowered, it would put the below stage area pretty clos= e to the max to adjust it. Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I= think) in the neighborhood of -25 to -50. =20 If I don=E2=80=99t have a water leak in the morning, I will try leaning an= d flying with it like it is. Perhaps letting it learn using Mode 9.. =20 Bill B =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 1:45 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. =20 Bill, you are describing what is happening with my engine exactly. Please= find out what is going on with it so you'll save me the trouble. : ) =20 Brian Trubee =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 6:20 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. Tracy, =20 Last upgrade was 7 Nov 07. for both the EC-2 and EM-2. I am not certain= what was done or when the CAS terminator would have been done??? =20 Bill =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Tracy Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 8:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. =20 Hi Bill, =20 When you just need a quick check of differential on EGTs, glance at the EG= T bar graphs on the main page of EM2. If the bars are close to the same= height you know they're OK. Each of the segments on the bars represents= about 20 degrees F. One or 2 segments is not a problem, if there is a= rotor differential problem bad enough to cause a miss due to mixture or= ignition, it will be well over 100 degrees in difference, i.e. it will= be obvious. Remember which bar was the low one and that will tell you= which rotor to start looking at. One other thought: Since you are running the Renesis, did you have the= EC2 upgraded with the Renesis CAS terminator? Don't know if you were fol= lowing the thread when that was being discussed a couple of years ago. Th= e EC2 was originally designed for the 2nd gen CAS and the Renesis was diff= erent enough to need a change. High speed miss or hard starting were the= symptoms. Tracy On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Mark, The car the engine came from had about 1400 miles on it. I have run about= 40 gallons of gas thru it. I will have to check the coils for darkening.= Also same for plug wires. I am using the stock Renesis plugs. I might= try cleaning them. =20 On a previous occasion, I flooded the engine and it would not start till= I sand blasted the plugs. After that it started normally. =20 This problem just happened on the second takeoff. The engine was running= smoothly at all rpms till I made the second takeoff. It started to miss= and pop and the rpm would only go to about 6300. after I got in the air,= I dialed the prop back and the rpm was around 6000 and the engine smoothe= d out again and was ok the rest of the flight. Now it is missing on the= ground above the staging point. I have mine set at 16 inches. I watched the mixture and it seems fine on both sides of the staging point= and also on up in the higher rpms. The only difference is that the engin= e starts to miss.erratically. I didn=E2=80=99t notice the EGT as Tracy su= ggested. I need to switch to the page that shows the temp of both of them= and check that today. =20 Bill =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Mark Steitle Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:50 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. =20 Bill,=20 =20 How do the coils look (underneath)? Are there dark areas in the potting= material where they have gotten hot? There is a history of coil failures= in the RX-8's after about 30k miles. =20 =20 How many hours on the plugs/wires? How do they look? =20 Mark =20 On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Mark, =20 I have the stock Renesis coils. =20 Bill B =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Mark Steitle Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 6:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point. =20 Bill,=20 =20 Which coils are you running? I chased an intermittent miss which occurred= in the 6000 -7000 range. I upgraded to the LS2 "Yukon" coils and the mis= s was gone. =20 =20 Mark S. On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: I have developed a miss above the staging point. The fuel pressure seems= ok, the mixture also seems ok. I am at a loss. =20 To try and troubleshoot, I am considering getting above the staging point= and disabling the primaries and secondaries to see if I can identify whic= h is the cause. Since it runs ok below the stage, I assume it is not the= primaries. =20 I recently changed my fuel filters and installed a large canister filter.= There seems a possibility that I introduced some contamination that clo= gged an injector. Other wise it seems it must be spark related. This jus= t happened one flight ago. The engine was running fine, till that last ta= keoff. It was missing and would only get about 6300 rpm. After take off,= I turned the prop back and slowed the engine down to below that number an= d it smoothed out and ran fine the res of the flight. Today while taxiing= around, I noticed that the miss was back. =20 Opinions welcomed. =20 Bill B =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ----------MB_8CDAA7A260C7344_14A8_4495D_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Bill,
That sounds pretty encouraging. I have 28 lb primaries and 40 lb seco= ndaries, but I forget what colors they are. Do you know the lb rating= for the red, blue and yellow injectors? Also, what was your source for th= e injectors and what is the price?
 
Thanks,
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 4:20 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point.

Brian,
 
If what I found tod= ay turns out to be the total problem, you are going to be happy!
First let me say th= at I installed the valve in my heater hose as was suggested by Tracy. = ; What would you expect when you work with hose clamps..right=E2=80=A6a le= ak!  So I think that I got that fixed today.  Hope!, Hope!
 
I taxied out on the= ramp so I could discover the leak and ran the engine up and down the scal= e.  It was pretty fine below the staging point and then I discovered= that it was going rich above the staging  point.  I could turn= the mixture back to about 9:30-10 oclock and it would stop missing! =
 
I have swapped out= the stock red, blue injectors for all four yellow injectors.  As I= recall, the red are good for about 200 CC and the blue for about 500 CC.&= nbsp; The yellow are good for about 350 CC.  this means that either= setup will give about the same total output at full bore.  But the= yellow give much more juice below staging than the two red would. = I have cleared the large secondary mode.
 
Looking at my MAP= table, if find that the prior to stage area is running pretty consistentl= y around +80.  The after stage area is pretty consistently running ar= ound Zero to -15.  The after stage area is too rich and needs to be= lowered.
 
Tracy= ,
 
With this scenario,= would you try and adjust the post stage area using Mode 1 or 9, or would= you first lower the fuel injector flow rate using Mode 3?  If the ra= te is lowered, it would put the below stage area pretty close to the max= to adjust it.  Adjusting the after stage area will put it (I think)= in the neighborhood of -25 to -50.
 
If I don=E2=80=99t= have a water leak in the morning, I will try leaning and flying with it= like it is.  Perhaps letting it learn using Mode 9..
 
Bill B
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of b= ktrub@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 20= 11 1:45 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Miss above staging point.
 
 Bill, you= are describing what is happening with my engine exactly. Please find out= what is going on with it so you'll save me the trouble. : )=
 
Brian Trubee
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbrad= burry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 6:20 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Miss above staging point.
Tracy= ,
 
Last upgrade was 7= Nov 07. for both the EC-2 and EM-2.  I am not certain what was done= or when the CAS terminator would have been done???
 
Bill<= FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial>
 
From:<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behal= f Of Tracy
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 20= 11 8:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Miss above staging point.
 
Hi Bill, 
When you just need a quick check of differential on EGTs, glance at the EG= T bar graphs on the main page of EM2.  If the bars are close to the= same height you know they're OK.  Each of the segments on the bars= represents about 20 degrees F.   One or 2 segments is not a problem,= if there is a rotor differential problem bad enough to cause a miss due= to mixture or ignition, it will be well over 100 degrees in difference,= i.e.  it will be obvious.   Remember which bar was the low= one and that will tell you which rotor to start looking at.

One other thought:   Since you are running the Renesis,  di= d you have the EC2 upgraded with the Renesis CAS terminator?  Don't= know if you were following the thread when that was being discussed a cou= ple of years ago.  The EC2 was originally designed for the 2nd gen CA= S and the Renesis was different enough to need a change.  High speed= miss or hard starting were the symptoms.

Tracy
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 8:= 14 AM, Bill Bradburry <<= FONT color=3Dblue>bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Mark,=
The car the engine= came from had about 1400 miles on it.  I have run about 40 gallons= of gas thru it.  I will have to check the coils for darkening. = Also same for plug wires.  I am using the stock Renesis plugs. = I might try cleaning them.
 
On a previous occas= ion, I flooded the engine and it would not start till I sand blasted the= plugs.  After that it started normally.
 
This problem just= happened on the second takeoff.  The engine was running smoothly at= all rpms till I made the second takeoff.  It started to miss and pop= and the rpm would only go to about 6300.  after I got in the air, I= dialed the prop back and the rpm was around 6000 and the engine smoothed= out again and was ok the rest of the flight.  Now it is missing on= the ground above the staging point.  I have mine set at 16 inches.
I watched the mixtu= re and it seems fine on both sides of the staging point and also on up in= the higher rpms.  The only difference is that the engine starts to= miss.erratically.  I didn=E2=80=99t notice the EGT as Tracy suggeste= d.  I need to switch to the page that shows the temp of both of them= and check that today.
 
Bill<= FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial>
 
From:<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf= Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, March 05,= 2011 9:50 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Miss above staging point.
 
Bill, =
 
How do the coils look (un= derneath)?  Are there dark areas in the potting material where they= have gotten hot?  There is a history of coil failures in the RX-8's= after about 30k miles.    
 
How many hours on the plu= gs/wires?  How do they look?
 
Mark  =
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:= 36 PM, Bill Bradburry <<= FONT color=3Dblue>bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Mark,=
 
I have the stock Re= nesis coils.
 
Bill B
 
From:<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf= Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, March 05,= 2011 6:19 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Miss above staging point.
 
Bill, =
 
Which coils are you runni= ng?  I chased an intermittent miss which occurred in the 6000 -7000= range.  I upgraded to the LS2 "Yukon" coils and the miss was gone.=  
 
Mark S.
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 4:= 56 PM, Bill Bradburry <<= FONT color=3Dblue>bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I have developed a= miss above the staging point.  The fuel pressure seems ok, the mixtu= re also seems ok.  I am at a loss.
 
To try and troubles= hoot, I am considering getting above the staging point and disabling the= primaries and secondaries to see if I can identify which is the cause.&nb= sp; Since it runs ok below the stage, I assume it is not the primaries.
 
I recently changed= my fuel filters and installed a large canister filter.  There seems= a possibility  that I introduced some contamination that clogged an= injector.  Other wise it seems it must be spark related.  This= just happened one flight ago.  The engine was running fine, till tha= t last takeoff.  It was missing and would only get about 6300 rpm.&nb= sp; After take off, I turned the prop back and slowed the engine down to= below that number and it smoothed out and ran fine the res of the flight.=   Today while taxiing around, I noticed that the miss was back.
 
Opinions welcomed.<= /SPAN>
 
Bill B
 
 
 
 
 
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