X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4892144 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:05:56 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.39; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p25K55Wr006155 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:05:05 -0500 Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d0f.74fc0913 (34935) for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from magic-m19.mail.aol.com (magic-m19.mail.aol.com [172.21.136.208]) by cia-da04.mx.aol.com (v129.9) with ESMTP id MAILCIADA048-88774d72976c1be; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:05:00 -0500 From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <2a8dc.4ef19a34.3aa3f16c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:05:00 EST Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_2a8dc.4ef19a34.3aa3f16c_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5382 X-AOL-IP: 72.187.199.116 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Lehanover@aol.com --part1_2a8dc.4ef19a34.3aa3f16c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/5/2011 1:17:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes: As I recall ignition timing as high as 27 + degrees BTDC has/is used for naturally aspirated rotarys.........Lynn has stated many times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty for most use and not much more than that probably should be used for our turbo engines............Again Lynn jump in here and give us the straight info.............. I just checked my Racing Beat manual again, as the memory is fading a bit. They use 10 degrees on the dyno and race on 12 degrees for turbo and supercharged engines. Keep in mind that they are pouring fuel through this engine to make max power, and are fuel cooling it to the extent possible. Turbo and supercharging gives away the Ace in the hole owned by the rotary. And that is the big (much area) cold combustion chamber, that allows the use of very low octane fuel without detonation. So now we add the turbo, and the turbo adds 100 degrees to the intake air and we take one giant step closer to the detonation penalty box. Detonation is charge temperature dependant, and now the plan is to run at least 100 degrees above ambient all of the time? It is just a degree of difficulty problem. Turbo engines are run lean of peak EGT every day. Where the NA engine is loosing compression ratio as the RPM goes up, the turbo engine is gaining compression ratio as the boost goes up. The when boost is at its limit, cylinder filling and compression ratio starts down again. Probably above where the engine will be used. The transition from rich of peak climb to lean of peak cruise is critical. I would let the speed build up so the switch to lean of peak can be with the engine unloaded a bit. The loss of fuel will slow the plane and a few seconds of lighter load will help the tuning time. Both situations could have been loaded into the controller and once at speed the switch to "B" would be all that is required. Switch to "B", lean to stumble, back rich to just smooth. Less fuel, less power, slower plane. BUT...........Lower cost for fuel. Less wear. Lower temps. Less worry. Read everything about piston airplane turbo engines. The Allisons in the P-38s were turbocharged and they did just fine. Once lean of peak at cruise, lower chamber temps from lower fuel burn lowers charge temps. Lynn E. Hanover --part1_2a8dc.4ef19a34.3aa3f16c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/5/2011 1:17:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 keltro@att.net writes:
As I recall ignition timing as high
as 27 + degrees BTDC has/is used for naturally aspirated=20 rotarys.........Lynn has stated
many times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty for most use an= d not=20 much more
than that probably should be used for our turbo engines............= Again=20 Lynn jump in here
and give us the straight=20 info..............  
I just checked my Racing Beat manual again, as the memory is fading= a bit.=20 They use 10 degrees on the dyno and race on 12 degrees for turbo and=20 supercharged engines. Keep in mind that they are pouring fuel through this= =20 engine to make max power, and are fuel cooling it to the extent possible.=
 
Turbo and supercharging gives away the Ace in the hole owned by the= rotary.=20 And that is the big (much area) cold combustion chamber, that allows the= use of=20 very low octane fuel without detonation.
 
So now we add the turbo, and the turbo adds 100 degrees to the intake= air=20 and we take one giant step closer to the detonation penalty box. Detonatio= n is=20 charge temperature dependant, and now the plan is to run at least 100 degr= ees=20 above ambient all of the time?  It is just a degree of difficulty pro= blem.=20 Turbo engines are run lean of peak EGT every day.
 
Where the NA engine is loosing compression ratio as the RPM goes up,= the=20 turbo engine is gaining compression ratio as the boost goes up. The when= boost=20 is at its limit, cylinder filling and compression ratio starts down again.= =20 Probably above where the engine will be used.
 
The transition from rich of peak climb to lean of peak cruise is crit= ical.=20 I would let the speed build up so the switch to lean of peak can be with= the=20 engine unloaded a bit. The loss of fuel will slow the plane and a few seco= nds of=20 lighter load will help the tuning time. Both situations could have been lo= aded=20 into the controller and once at speed the switch to "B" would be all that= is=20 required.
 
Switch to "B", lean to stumble, back rich to just smooth.
 
Less fuel, less power, slower plane. BUT...........Lower cost for fue= l.=20 Less wear. Lower temps. Less worry.
 
Read everything about piston airplane turbo engines.
 
The Allisons in the P-38s were turbocharged and they did just fine.
 
Once lean of peak at cruise, lower chamber temps from lower fuel burn= =20 lowers charge temps.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
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