X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.150] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4892097 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 13:17:34 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.150; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.103] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 18:16:58 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.88] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 18:16:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 18:16:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 388930.82709.bm@omp1025.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 5577 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Mar 2011 18:16:58 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1299349018; bh=aTxFuAMBOKeEXCJpaivmLvy33Im76AFI8tE3FmmRJoU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=K22wN7bggjXedrDyvMJBqJRaKOyNQVUdd/wgcnX0Q6FanX8EdP4uzc8W1BVTmKioKXG1hiBhh9zJVRHZRowQKIZzHCWgPNFatLkPEfBUBZnKy1xOJ9dmVRfmI2Qdf2DGoHGFqw94YxYnKgLeLGkprcQr77xwV1/v1t7NerNxnkw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UeWtV1rscLROgvTUBG83LVDHu9Y8N4TabDvBIFQXxHeXtf6Fxrt8ulxwBKhfOqHrmNH+6gXnTtSL2Abzlor85fLJAuE+HxZ1NX13s/5oacI9X0ugjQoLAIkjFGOX/yd7aT7NxQlJRKL7YiAr1pt84/duBHOTmOis6EtVNJKcKGw=; Message-ID: <180382.4600.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: wemYKxgVM1lbReNxhJufy.l0IFrujT30KVm2n2RR05uylaY wqEQQZ5IjdfqcH_xU6QnwrvZy2O_l5Nto0JGiN.3fAN_q7VZ5fgMX6fcWs7C a1RxpCh6z.qaI.XoKM3vU7SSaF67Q8AyPNkYG2QmxGS6YGPvUGJz0NMSwjZ7 QqDOxnaNIYa8qVARW67kQ1I0aKnsXNPu84SWoCW55vibQy72vuA4rvFhH4BP tmqK.JeBPLeBOzQIvFn8DGC2v1ObLxD0eP9AIvFg_NGH_3DTFpykZI1D5_Ls NbH01ev0HkQ-- Received: from [208.114.47.246] by web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 10:16:57 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 10:16:57 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-403005955-1299349017=:4600" --0-403005955-1299349017=:4600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0My post on leaning reminded me of the work Ch= arles Lindbergh did with =0Athe =0A=0AArmy Air=A0Force P-38 pilots in the P= acific in WW2..............In order to teach =0Athem=0Ahow to get as much r= ange as possible from their=A0Turbo Charged/Allison=A0 engines=0Ahe taught = them how to use aggressive leaning techniques..........This is what =0Agave= =0Athem the range=A0to intercept Admiral Yamamoto's bomber and shoot him do= wn....=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 This is listed as the longest fighter intercept= mission of the =0Awar....It=A0was also =0A=0Areported=A0Lindbergh actually= flew some combat missions=A0(as a civilian) while in =0Athe =0A=0APacific = theater..........=0A=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"1= 3B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________= _=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March 5, 2011 10:58:14 AM=0ASubject= : [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A=0A=0AGuys,=0A=A0=A0 One oth= er=A0point that I forgot to mention was=A0ignition timing..........It is = =0Amy understanding=0Athat turboed engines should not use excessive timing = advance and that the higher =0Athe =0A=0Aboost the less timing advance is n= eeded (or wise).........As=A0I recall=A0ignition =0Atiming as high=0Aas 27 = + degrees BTDC=A0has/is used for naturally aspirated rotarys.........Lynn = =0Ahas stated=0Amany times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty for mos= t use and not much =0Amore=0Athan that probably should be used for our turb= o engines............Again Lynn =0Ajump in=A0here=0Aand give us the straigh= t info..............=A0=A0=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventua= lly)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________= _________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Rotary motors in airc= raft =0ASent: Sat, March 5, 2011 9:56:53 AM=0A= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A=0A=0AJohn, Chris,=0A= =A0=A0=A0=A0 I just remembered one other tidbit of info from our rotary gur= u =0ALynn.........One of=0Ahis informative posts on fuel and the effects of= octane ratings stated that as =0Ayou lean=0Athe auto fuel that many of us = use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is =0Aslowed and=0Athis mimics t= he effect of=A0lead in fuel=A0(100 octane+) and makes the leaned=A0auto =0A= fuel =0A=0Aless prone to detonation at the same time lowering EGT temps....= ....I see no =0Areason =0A=0Athis cannot work the=A0same way with our=A0tur= bo engines...........Hopfully Lynn =0Awill jump=0Ain here and give us the s= traight info if I have this wrong...........=0A=A0=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYK= E DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MI= STRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__= ______________________________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: = Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March = 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A= =0A=0AJohn,=0A=A0=A0 As you said=A0Chris's problem is probably a combinatio= n of factors..........You =0Amentioned your =0A=0Aintercooled intake temps = being about 130F during climb..........Info I have =0Aabout intercooling=0A= used 130F as a desired max=A0boosted intake temp..........What are=A0your = =0Atypical=A0intake temps at =0A=0Acruise and what manifold pressures (or P= SI) do you=A0use at takeoff, climb and =0Acruise........Also=0Awhat is your= EGT at cruise ?.............=0A=0AThanks,=A0=0A=A0=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DY= KE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"M= ISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_= _______________________________=0AFrom: John Slade =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: S= at, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and in= dicator=0A=0A>Perhaps too much ignition timing or=A0mixture problems such a= s spending to much =0A>time at best =0A>=0A>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) ins= tead of richer than best power before leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean of peak= =A0EGT.=0AYes, possibly. I always run rich, especially during run-up and ta= ke-off. By =0Arunning rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My = EC2 is adjusted as =0Abest I could, and seems to keep the mixture about rig= ht,=A0 - but I still turn it =0Arich for high power ops. My EGT alarm is se= t at 1750, and I occasionally have to =0Areset it and back off the throttle= during climb. Perhaps I'm being too =0Aconservative here. =0A=0A=0AIts bee= n a while since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake temp (after the = =0Aintercooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow to my intercoole= r =0Acould/should be improved.=0A=0AIt's possible that Chris is overdoing t= he static high power runs. I mostly did =0Amine during high speed taxi test= s and was always mindful of the temps. I think I =0Aread that Chris runs hi= gh power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full =0Apower static for= more than a minute or two. =0A=0A=0ANo - I don't aggressively lean at crui= se - I set the mixture at 12 and let the =0AEC2 do it's thing. Besides - Ch= ris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's =0Athat. As you say - it has= to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a =0Acombination of the three, p= ossibly combined with "destructive testing" on the =0Aground (which I did i= n the air :).=0A=0AChris - what oil are you using? I used Mobil dino oil du= ring initial testing and =0AMobil 1 thereafter.=0A=0ARegards,=0AJohn=0A=0A= =0AOn 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0AJohn,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 =A0Chris= is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only =0A>u= sing =0A>=0A>about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing=A0detonation= =0A>?............Perhaps too=A0 =0A>=0A>much ignition timing or=A0mixture = problems such as spending to much time at best =0A>power mixture (1700+ f E= GT) instead of richer than best power before leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean = of peak=A0EGT..........What EGT temps do you routinely see during=0A>takeof= f, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise =0A>?....= ........=0A>=0A>Thanks,=A0=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (E= ventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backp= late/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A_____= ___________________________=0AFrom: John Slade = =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Fr= i, March 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and in= dicator=0A>=0A>On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>> engine runs re= ported by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant temps and =0A>>as y= ou mentioned=0A>> probably high intake temps with little or no airflow acro= ss the =0A>>intercooler.............=0A>I did many, many engine runs and hi= gh speed taxi tests prior to flight, often =0A>with the temps at the limits= . On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and =0A>back off the thrott= le. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are =0A>3mm 'indestr= uctible' seals from Tracy.=0A>John Slade=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://w= ww.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81= /lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-403005955-1299349017=:4600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
=0A
Guys,
=0A
     =    My post on leaning reminded me of the work Charles Lindbergh d= id with the
=0A
Army Air Force P-38 pilots in the Pacific in= WW2..............In order to teach them
=0A
how to get as much ra= nge as possible from their Turbo Charged/Allison  engines
= =0A
he taught them how to use aggressive leaning techniques..........Th= is is what gave
=0A
them the range to intercept Admiral Yamam= oto's bomber and shoot him down....
=0A
    &n= bsp;  This is listed as the longest fighter intercept mission of the w= ar....It was also
=0A
reported Lindbergh actually flew = some combat missions (as a civilian) while in the
=0A
Pacifi= c theater..........
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A

Kell= y Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (= Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2= /EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turb= o

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A<= HR SIZE=3D1>=0AFrom: Kelly = Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 10= :58:14 AM
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

=0A
=0A
=0AGuys,
=0A
   One other point that I forgot to ment= ion was ignition timing..........It is my understanding
=0A
t= hat turboed engines should not use excessive timing advance and that the hi= gher the
=0A
boost the less timing advance is needed (or wise)...= ......As I recall ignition timing as high
=0A
as 27 + de= grees BTDC has/is used for naturally aspirated rotarys.........Lynn ha= s stated
=0A
many times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty f= or most use and not much more
=0A
than that probably should be use= d for our turbo engines............Again Lynn jump in here
=0Aand give us the straight info..............  
 
= =0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_T= O4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:<= /B> Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Sat, March = 5, 2011 9:56:53 AM
Subject:<= /B> [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

=0A
=0A
=0A
John, Chris,
=0A
     I just rememb= ered one other tidbit of info from our rotary guru Lynn.........One of=0A
his informative posts on fuel and the effects of octane ratings st= ated that as you lean
=0A
the auto fuel that many of us use (87 to= 91 octane) that the flame front is slowed and
=0A
this mimics the= effect of lead in fuel (100 octane+) and makes the leaned a= uto fuel
=0A
less prone to detonation at the same time lowering E= GT temps........I see no reason
=0A
this cannot work the sam= e way with our turbo engines...........Hopfully Lynn will jump
= =0A
in here and give us the straight info if I have this wrong.........= ..
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>=
To: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and in= dicator

=0A
=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
 &nbs= p; As you said Chris's problem is probably a combination of factors...= .......You mentioned your
=0A
intercooled intake temps being abou= t 130F during climb..........Info I have about intercooling
=0A
us= ed 130F as a desired max boosted intake temp..........What are yo= ur typical intake temps at
=0A
cruise and what manifold pres= sures (or PSI) do you use at takeoff, climb and cruise........Also=0A
what is your EGT at cruise ?.............
=0A
 =0A
Thanks, 
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually= )

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"M= ISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: John Slade <j= slade@canardaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= B>Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 7:5= 4:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

>Perhaps too much igni= tion timing or mixture problems such as spending to much time at best = =0A
>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power b= efore leaning quickly to lean of peak EGT.
Yes, possibly. I al= ways run rich, especially during run-up and take-off. By running rich, I me= an I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as best I could,= and seems to keep the mixture about right,  - but I still turn it ric= h for high power ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasionally have = to reset it and back off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm being too c= onservative here.

Its been a while since I checked it, but I seem t= o recall intake temp (after the intercooler) being around 130 during climb.= The airflow to my intercooler could/should be improved.

It's possib= le that Chris is overdoing the static high power runs. I mostly did mine du= ring high speed taxi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I think I r= ead that Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full power static for more than a minute or two.

No - I don't = aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the EC2 do it= 's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's that. = As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a combination= of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on the ground (= which I did in the air :).

Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mo= bil dino oil during initial testing and Mobil 1 thereafter.

Regards,=
John


On 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
     = ;Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only= using
=0A
about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing = ;detonation ?............Perhaps too 
=0A
much ignition timi= ng or mixture problems such as spending to much time at best
=0A=
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before l= eaning
=0A
quickly to lean of peak EGT..........What EG= T temps do you routinely see during
=0A
takeoff, climb and cruise = ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise ?............
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
Thanks,  
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /FONT>

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MIS= TRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
= =0AFrom: John Slade <js= lade@canardaviation.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Fri, March= 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

On 3/4/2011 4= :43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> engine runs reported by Chris at high m= anifold pressure, high coolant temps and as you mentioned
> probably = high intake temps with little or no airflow across the intercooler.........= ....
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and back off= the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are 3mm '= indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage: = ; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= BR>
= --0-403005955-1299349017=:4600--