X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4570763 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Nov 2010 08:53:18 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=dmlobner@gmail.com Received: by eyx24 with SMTP id 24so2785264eyx.25 for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2010 05:52:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=dxTZYk82zEnvujkE9+AAFsR1x2kUEnmvmu/7K/wbc2w=; b=J3psnKC7FUbka25Y0QS8VIkyouywhkhMBImmxhVdxDkdy+3kULApicPEuVpiHxIKwJ X4OL3DsMJVLgLqjk7wJlWyiY5AH33nTGmph9MudCnzeYaALE3CyuWaHg6qzBig10mvyQ YNudnhQhYQGrEGwji/pWcUfr6nKpAjIAFNnYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=omDWm3XKR3nQLlo+hAzzp59emB1XuGDsaNgRtz07ZaHGXkMtBnV+cQeSO/OfgDAukS 5Fj0B9rVCSfCKgLVnTC1mFyPz5TKFfIu6DKHwBskEUYiQEIt/BN4UF1yMWXL/BB4vRmM c83l5wKxTnKmHegvPkEDz6A3tUrgxG7UXW+oA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.101.20 with SMTP id a20mr4261597ebo.50.1289224362324; Mon, 08 Nov 2010 05:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.22.202 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2010 05:52:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 07:52:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Current "state of the art" in rotaries - potential Bearhawk install From: Dustin Lobner To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c0e7426fc9704948af003 --0015174c0e7426fc9704948af003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Barnstormers and trade-a-plane. By "decent" I mean "still has about 500 hours before TBO"... I've also been looking into Continental O-470s because 540s are harder to find as that's what the RV-10 crowd uses. Dustin On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Dustin, > > > > Where did you find a decent O-540 for $15k? I have not looked in a while > but you may find a decent O-360 in that price range, but an O-540 will > probably be twice that??? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Tracy > *Sent:* Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:13 > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Current "state of the art" in rotaries - > potential Bearhawk install > > > > Hi Dustin, > Answering the broad "what should I do " question is always a tall > order. But in general, if you want a reliable 300HP your only option is a > 20B. The 'all aluminum' version would be great (if it's real) but I doubt > you could hit your target of $15K with that. Forget about 90+% of the car > racer mods and just go with mild street porting. The peak loads we place > on the engine are way less than a drag race application so the extra dowels > are not necessary. The 20B in my RV-8 was built from mostly 13B parts > except for the 20B center housing, crank and tension bolts. No other > significant mods other than mild street port. Ceramic coating of the rotors > is fine if done right but it has nothing to do with avoiding detonation. > Use the 89 - 91 13B 9.7 : 1 CR rotors if possible. > > Tracy > > On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Dustin Lobner wrote: > > Hi everyone! > > This is my first message here. My name is Dustin, I live in the Rockford > area in Illinois. I'm going to be starting a Bearhawk in the next couple of > months and am strongly considering a rotary conversion for it...it'll be a > few years before I'm at the "need an engine" point, but I want to know what > I want to do before I get there, hence research now. The three sentence > background on the Bearhawk: It's a 4-place utility/STOL aircraft that's > pretty much my dream plane. Typical engine installs are O-360s and O-540, > max HP set at 260HP due to the weight of a 300 HP Lycoming. I'd be > comfortable running about 300HP on it, with a max complete engine weight of > 400 pounds. > > I'm a metallurgical engineer at an aerospace company here in town. This, > along with family, keep me very busy. As such, I'm interested in as close > to a "turnkey" option that I can get (without forking over $+60k for > something like a Mistral). I have extensive experience working on cars and > motorcycles (and several friends who have a lot more), none working on a > rotary though. I also have welding experience and will be buying a TIG > welder as part of this project. > > With all that in mind, how I want this to work out is to buy the big pieces > and bolt them together and work out things like intake, exhaust, etc. I'm > an engineer, I do like figuring out how to do stuff and engineering > solutions to problems...but I worry about never finishing, hence wanting > people who know what they are doing to make the big parts. > > On with the questions... > > #1a) I'd like to have an engine builder build me a "core engine", minus > EFI, intake, exhaust, etc. Any recommended builders out there? > #1b) I emailed the folks at www.rotaryengine.com. I laid out my > requirements and asked "what do you think I should do?" They aren't an > aviation engine builder, so it'll be interesting to see what they come back > with. In particular, they have all-aluminum engines (they bill themselves > as the "home of the 3 rotor all-aluminum engine"). Any thoughts on them as > a company or on the all-aluminum concept? > #2) I was planning on using Tracy's ECI3/EMS3/RD-1C reduction drive. I see > that Tracy is active here, which is awesome. (Tracy, you seem like a nice > guy, so no offense intended on the next statement here): Are there any other > viable options for a rotary reduction or ECI/EMS system out there? > #3) Are there any recommended modifications to the engine to make it more > reliable? There are a ton of things recommended by www.rotarengine.com(who sells the stuff, so take it with a pound of salt). These things > include ceramic coatings of rotors to prevent detonation, various porting > mods, oil-flow enhancement, cooling flow enhancement, installation of more > dowel pins, etc. > > I had (somewhat arbitrarily) set the cost I was willing to spend at $15k, > about the cost of a decent used Lycoming O-540. If the cost of this can > stay below that, awesome. I'd rather spend a bit more and get something > "done right" than skimp and then have an engine or redrive blow up on me. > > Tracy, I sent you an email with most of the above laid out. Feel free to > ignore it, reply here if you wish. > > Thanks in advance for any replies! > > Dustin > > > --0015174c0e7426fc9704948af003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barnstormers and trade-a-plane.=A0 By "decent" I mean "still= has about 500 hours before TBO"...=A0 I've also been looking into= Continental O-470s because 540s are harder to find as that's what the = RV-10 crowd uses.

Dustin

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:45 A= M, Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net> wrote:

Dustin,=

=A0

Where did you = find a decent O-540 for $15k?=A0 I have not looked in a while but you may find a decent O-360 in that price range, but an O-540 will probably be twice that???

=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Sunday, November 07,= 2010 11:13
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: C= urrent "state of the art" in rotaries - potential Bearhawk install

=A0

Hi Dustin,
=A0=A0 Answering the broad=A0 "what should I do " question is always a tall order. =A0 But in general, if you want a reliable 300HP your only option is a 20B.=A0 The 'all aluminum' version would be g= reat (if it's real) but I doubt you could hit your target of=A0 $15K with that.= =A0 Forget about 90+% of the car racer mods and just go with mild street portin= g. =A0 The peak loads we place on the engine are way less than a drag race application so the extra dowels are not necessary.=A0=A0 The 20B in my RV-8 was built from mostly 13B parts except for the 20B center housing, cra= nk and tension bolts.=A0 No other significant mods other than mild street port.=A0 Ceramic coating of the rotors is fine if done right but it has nothing to do with avoiding detonation.=A0=A0 Use the 89 - 91 13B=A0 9.7 : 1 CR rotors if possible.

Tracy

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Dustin Lobner <dmlobner@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone!

This is my first message here.=A0 My name is Dustin, I live in the Rockford= area in Illinois.=A0 I'm going to be starting a Bearhawk in the next couple of months and am strongly considering a rotary conversion for it...it'll be a few years = before I'm at the "need an engine" point, but I want to know what I = want to do before I get there, hence research now.=A0 The three sentence background on the Bearhawk: It's a 4-place utility/STOL aircraft that's pretty= much my dream plane.=A0 Typical engine installs are O-360s and O-540, max HP set at 260HP due to the weight of a 300 HP Lycoming.=A0 I'd be comfortable run= ning about 300HP on it, with a max complete engine weight of 400 pounds.

I'm a metallurgical engineer at an aerospace company here in town.=A0 T= his, along with family, keep me very busy.=A0 As such, I'm interested in as = close to a "turnkey" option that I can get (without forking over $+60k = for something like a Mistral).=A0 I have extensive experience working on cars and motorcycles (and several friends who have a lot more), none working on = a rotary though.=A0 I also have welding experience and will be buying a TIG welder as part of this project.

With all that in mind, how I want this to work out is to buy the big pieces= and bolt them together and work out things like intake, exhaust, etc.=A0 I'= m an engineer, I do like figuring out how to do stuff and engineering solutions = to problems...but I worry about never finishing, hence wanting people who know what they are doing to make the big parts.

On with the questions...

#1a) I'd like to have an engine builder build me a "core engine&qu= ot;, minus EFI, intake, exhaust, etc.=A0 Any recommended builders out there?
#1b) I emailed the folks at www.rotaryengine.com.=A0 I laid out my requirements and asked "what do you think I should do?"=A0 They aren't an avia= tion engine builder, so it'll be interesting to see what they come back with= .=A0 In particular, they have all-aluminum engines (they bill themselves as the "home of the 3 rotor all-aluminum engine").=A0 Any thoughts on them as a company or on the all-aluminum concept?
#2) I was planning on using Tracy's ECI3/EMS3/RD-1C reduction drive.=A0 I see that Tracy is active here, which = is awesome.=A0 (Tracy, you seem like a nice guy, so no offense intended on the next statement here): A= re there any other viable options for a rotary reduction or ECI/EMS system out there?
#3) Are there any recommended modifications to the engine to make it more reliable?=A0 There are a ton of things recommended by www.rotarengine.com (who sells the stuff, so take it with a pound of salt).=A0 These things include ceramic coatings of rotors to prevent detonation, various porting mods, oil-flow enhancement, cooling flow enhancement, installation of more dowel pins, etc.

I had (somewhat arbitrarily) set the cost I was willing to spend at $15k, a= bout the cost of a decent used Lycoming O-540.=A0 If the cost of this can stay below that, awesome.=A0 I'd rather spend a bit more and get something "done right" than skimp and then have an engine or redrive blow u= p on me.

Tracy, I sent you an email with most of the above laid out.=A0 Feel free to ignore it, reply here if you wish.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

Dustin

=A0


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