X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4436063 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:47:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-da02.mx.aol.com (imo-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.200]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o7INktgF028048 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:55 -0400 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-da02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.c9e.6d901a56 (43994) for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.146]) by cia-dd06.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIADD063-5bbe4c6c70e615b; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:51 -0400 Received: from webmail-d016 (webmail-d016.sim.aol.com [205.188.181.31]) by smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA035-5bbe4c6c70e615b; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:46 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:46 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CD0D46C0C6C293_181C_3F5C_webmail-d016.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 32447-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-d016.sysops.aol.com (205.188.181.31) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:46:46 -0400 Message-Id: <8CD0D46C0B3B763-181C-2614@webmail-d016.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CD0D46C0C6C293_181C_3F5C_webmail-d016.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Correction!!! I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pret= ty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I= run my engine at higher power. -----Original Message----- From: shipchief@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions George Kelly and all; I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the wat= er pump pulley bolts, as discussed in 'one thing leads to another'. Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alert= ed me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with the= upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.=20 I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty info= rmative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the battery= voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked= alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up= a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the in= take manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good= about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sw= eet. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink,= wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;) About the Turbo: I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine hou= sing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exh= aust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not acco= modate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold. I selected the On-Center turbi= ne because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fact I was= able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe= is very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor, and= to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine with= a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold.=20 I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts,= flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and= Simplicate". I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycomin= g IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't= imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is required, so I work at= it. All those accoutraments have there place, and maybe I will end up nee= ding some or all of them, but I decided to start with none of them and go= forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing. My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of= the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that= as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exh= aust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of= valve....I have a spot in mind for that too. I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build= so slowly. But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. I= can't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole wit= h Turbo application to Aviation needs. =20 Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use re= mote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow speed= to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass= could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A wastegat= e does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and= carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in controlling= heat and over spinning issues. =20 However you need the necessary room to make this possible. George (down under) Bob, John and All, =20 Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a turbo..........= ..After much research, talking to Bob=20 and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-= 50 trim (compressor wheel),=20 wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15= a/r ratio turbine housing......... =20 The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based= on the fact that the f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the sm= aller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm= wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ =20 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) verse= s the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was=20 based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that the 50= trim wheel would be running=20 in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Char= t" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B=20 that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course for= all practical purposes there is probably little discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations me= ntioned............. =20 At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!............FWIW....= ..............<:) =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-h= ot.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very effective to reduce he= at in the engine compartment. =20 It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. =20 Bob From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat resi= stant coating and if so what and where ??............. =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiato= r baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: http://www.eaa1246.org/pr= ojectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from= the turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an elect= ric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan. Attached is a= view from the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo comp= ressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold. =20 =20 Bob =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size tur= bine wheel would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the tur= bine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not= clear to me how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air density= lessens with altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller turbin= e wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??......... =20 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct that= that the=20 effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is slig= ht and=20 probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group memb= ers would=20 like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... =20 On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo insta= llation during construction that you would care to share with the group ??........= ..You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from= your report is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to plagi= arize.....<:) =20 Best Regards,=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly,=20 =20 I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel (68= mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to= absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either one= should be OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performanc= e differences between the two wheel sizes. =20 Bob =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Thanks much for the info.................Just one more question.........= .....Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm= turbine wheel....... Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 tur= bo ??.............. =20 Thanks Again, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure= (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D . At altitudes of 5,000= feet and above, I generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GP= H) and 180 knots. Engine RPM is about 5,800. The turbo is capable of con= siderably more boost than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil= temps at higher power settings. I do not want to run more than 200 degre= es on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees. I can maintain these temps (ev= en on hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long= as I keep the power settings at or below those described above. One day,= I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind)= was 213 knots. MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000. I have a 68=E2=80=9D diam= eter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 re= duction unit. =20 Bob ----------MB_8CD0D46C0C6C293_181C_3F5C_webmail-d016.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Correction!!!
I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's= pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens= as I run my engine at higher power.



-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

George Kelly and all;
I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired th= e water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in  'one thing leads to anoth= er'.
Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that= alerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with= the upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.
I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty= informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the batt= ery voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I= checked alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hoo= ked up a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel= the intake manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feelin= g good about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth= and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story= . wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;)
About the Turbo:
I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4= turbine housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled be= aring. I built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount= I bought would not accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifol= d.  I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flex= ibility it offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exh= aust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is= directly on the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turb= o is direct mounted to the engine with a very short but somewhat large vol= ume 321 stainless manifold.
I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mou= nts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness= and Simplicate".
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Ly= coming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reaso= ns. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is req= uired, so I work at it. All those accoutraments have there place= , and maybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to st= art with none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing.
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side= of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have= that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in th= e exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind= of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I bu= ild so slowly.
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!



-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@a= anet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

 Kelly,
Let us all know how well it goes for you= in the real world application. I can't help but feel we are trying to fit= a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation needs.
 
Personally for myself, as I have stated= before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars = ;use (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a= bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, fo= r (when required) application. A wastegate does the same thing but th= e exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I= think this would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issu= es.
 
However you need the necessary room to ma= ke this possible.
George (down under)
Bob, John and All,
 
     Well I have bit the bullet and made my= decision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have order= ed a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and&n= bsp;1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
 
     The decision what size turbine wheel an= d a/r ratio housing was based on the fact that the f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than= the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to th= e F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............
 
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor whe= el (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated= opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption= Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of cours= e for all practical purposes there is probably
little discernible difference between any of these turbo configu= rations mentioned.............
 
   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!.....= .......FWIW..................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

=
From: "Rogers, Bob J." <= ;BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010= 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions