X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4435840 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:03:48 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CAA17388C for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:03:07 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id DCED9BEC018 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:03:06 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <6B72537288E94032B96072A01E9BC990@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:03:09 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB3F6C.94D5D290" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100818-1, 08/18/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB3F6C.94D5D290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. = I can't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole = with Turbo application to Aviation needs. Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use = remote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow = speed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The = by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A = wastegate does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the = turbo and carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in = controlling heat and over spinning issues. However you need the necessary room to make this possible. George (down under) Bob, John and All, Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a = turbo............After much research, talking to Bob=20 and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a = TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),=20 wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and = 1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing......... The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was = based on the fact that the f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than = the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the = F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) = verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was=20 based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that = the 50 trim wheel would be running=20 in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption = Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B=20 that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course = for all practical purposes there is probably little discernible difference between any of these turbo = configurations mentioned............. At least I have livened up the forum for a while = !!............FWIW..................<:) Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. = http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very = effective to reduce heat in the engine compartment. It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat = resistant coating and if so what and where ??............. Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before = radiator baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: = http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. = Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than the = oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into the = engine oil pan. Attached is a view from the front, which shows the = hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back = to the intake manifold. =20 Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size = turbine wheel would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the = turbine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is = not clear to me how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air = density lessens with altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller = turbine wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb = ??......... Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct = that that the=20 effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is = slight and=20 probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group = members would=20 like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo = installation during construction that you would care to share with the group = ??..........You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which = from your report is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to = plagiarize.....<:) Best Regards,=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly,=20 I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel = (68 mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area = to absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either = one should be OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the = performance differences between the two wheel sizes. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, Thanks much for the info.................Just one more = question..............Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 = mm turbine wheel....... Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 = turbo ??.............. Thanks Again, Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold = pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D . At = altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no more than about 36 = =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots. Engine RPM is about 5,800. The = turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, but I have to = watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings. I do not = want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 = degrees. I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap = settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings = at or below those described above. One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet = and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots. MP was = 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000. I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince = P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit. Bob ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB3F6C.94D5D290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
 Kelly,
Let us all know how well it goes for = you in the=20 real world application. I can't help but feel we are trying to fit a = square peg=20 in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation needs.
 
Personally for myself, as I have stated = before, I=20 feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to = reduce=20 the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the = exhaust=20 pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when required)=20 application. A wastegate does the same thing but the exhaust is = taken right=20 up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I think this would go a = long way=20 in controlling heat and over spinning issues.
 
However you need the necessary room to = make this=20 possible.
George (down under)
Bob, John and All,
 
     Well I have bit the bullet and made = my=20 decision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob =
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have = ordered a=20 TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel=20 and 1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
 
     The decision what size turbine = wheel and=20 a/r ratio housing was based on the fact that the f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure = than the=20 smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed = to the=20 F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will slow rpm increase for the same = reason............
 
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor = wheel=20 (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and = my uneducated=20 opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air = Consumption=20 Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of = course=20 for all practical purposes there is probably
little discernible difference between any of these turbo=20 configurations mentioned.............
 
   At least I have livened up the forum for a while=20 !!............FWIW..................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY=20 Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20


From: "Rogers, Bob J." = <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 = 5:20:49=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Turbo Questions

Yes, I used = the=20 Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link.=20 http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html  I think = that it=20 is very effective to reduce heat in the engine = compartment.

 

It is only = applied at=20 the Oklahoma City facility.

 

Bob

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 = 3:02=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Did you have your = turbine=20 housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat=20 resistant

coating and if so what = and where=20 ??.............

 

Thanks,
 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20

 

 

From: "=20 Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 = 10:57:22=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Turbo Questions

Kelly,

 

There is = one pretty=20 good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baffling) on = our EAA=20 Chapter 1246 website at: =20 = http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190.&= nbsp;=20 Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than = the oil=20 pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into the = engine oil=20 pan.  Attached is a view from the front, which shows the hoses = and tubing=20 from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back to the intake=20 manifold. 

 

Bob

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 = 10:02=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

   I am = waiting on a=20 clarification  from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine=20 wheel

would turn the = least rpm as=20 altitude increases.............I know the  turbine=20 housing

a/r ratio is a big = factor=20 effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not clear to=20 me

how the turbine = wheel=20 diameter and trim factor in.............Air density lessens=20 with

altitude but I am = not smart=20 enough to know if the larger or smaller turbine=20 wheel

will have the highest = rpm because=20 of this factor as we climb ??.........

 

  Perhaps I am = being anal=20 about this but and you are probably correct that that the=20

effect of a 3mm=20 diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and=20

probably=20 inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group members = would=20

like to shine some light = on this=20 please jump in here !!..........

 

  On another note = do you=20 happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo=20 installation

during construction that = you would=20 care to share with the group ??..........You = have

a beautiful (to = Rotorheads) and=20 well thought out installation which from your = report

is working very well = and I am=20 sure others of the group would like to=20 plagiarize.....<:)

 

Best=20 Regards, 

   

Kelly=20 Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B = ROTARY=20 Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold

 

 

From: "=20 Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 = 11:49:06=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Turbo Questions

Kelly,=20

 

I do not = know which=20 wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn = a little=20 more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the exhaust, = but it=20 should not make much difference.  Either one should be OK.  = The=20 Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differences = between=20 the two wheel sizes.

 

Bob

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 = 3:44=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Thanks much for = the=20 info.................Just one more question..............Info from=20 "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to = the=20 F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine wheel.......

  Do you have info = as to=20 what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo=20 ??..............

 

Thanks=20 Again,

 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20

 

 

From: "=20 Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 = 1:39:26=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Turbo Questions

Kelly,

 

I limit my = takeoff=20 power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of = manifold pressure=20 (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D .  At altitudes = of 5,000 feet and above, I=20 generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 = knots.  Engine=20 RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably more = boost than=20 this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power=20 settings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or = water and=20 prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on hot = days) with=20 cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the = power=20 settings at or below those described above.  One day, I climbed = to 11,000=20 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 = knots.  MP=20 was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 = pitch Prince P-tip fixed=20 pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.

 

Bob

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