X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4435669 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:49:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30325E0600FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:47:06 +0000 From: Chris Barber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30325E0600@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) byFCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:509::404:509]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Aug2010 12:48:19 -0500 References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Thread-Index: AQHLPvbxMOtJbsxPAUi5hiru9cCMepLnfOfu Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Modus-SURBL: =OK X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30325E0600FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Please "livin' up" the list like this often. It is why I come here. I lov= e this sort of actual applied application info. It helps me sleep better an= d be more secure in my comfort with my overall knowledge, both for my own u= se and that of others. All the best, Chris GSOT ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, John and All, Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a turbo...........= .After much research, talking to Bob and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-5= 0 trim (compressor wheel), wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 a/= r ratio turbine housing......... The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based o= n the fact that the f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the sma= ller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm w= heel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) verses= the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that the 50 = trim wheel would be running in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart= " (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course for = all practical purposes there is probably little discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations men= tioned............. At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!............FWIW.....= .............<:) Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold ________________________________ From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-ho= t.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very effective to reduce heat= in the engine compartment. It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. Bob ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat resis= tant coating and if so what and where ??............. Thanks, Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator= baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: http://www.eaa1246.org/proj= ectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. Because the oil drains from the = turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pu= mp to transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan. Attached is a view fr= om the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to= the intercooler and back to the intake manifold. Bob ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size turb= ine wheel would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the turb= ine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not c= lear to me how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air density l= essens with altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller turbine= wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??......... Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct that = that the effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is sligh= t and probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group membe= rs would like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo instal= lation during construction that you would care to share with the group ??.........= .You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from yo= ur report is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to plagia= rize.....<:) Best Regards, Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel (68 mm= ) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absor= b the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either one should b= e OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differen= ces between the two wheel sizes. Bob ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Bob, Thanks much for the info.................Just one more question..........= ....Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm tu= rbine wheel....... Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turb= o ??.............. Thanks Again, Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =93 of manifold pressure (=93MP= =94), usually just 40=94 . At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I general= ly run no more than about 36 =93 MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots. Engine RPM is = about 5,800. The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, bu= t I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings. I d= o not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 degr= ees. I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap settings= from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings at or below = those described above. One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS ground= speed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots. MP was 36=94, RPM 6,000. I = have a 68=94 diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to t= he RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit. Bob --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30325E0600FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
 
Please "livin' up" the list like this often.  It= is why I come here.  I love this sort of actual applied application i= nfo. It helps me sleep better and be more secure in my comfort with my over= all knowledge, both for my own use and that of others.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] on behalf of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

Bob, John and All,
 
     Well I have bit the bullet and made my d= ecision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I h= ave ordered a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wh= eel and 1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
 
     The decision what size turbine wheel and= a/r ratio housing was based on the fact that the f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than th= e smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the= F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............
 
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor whee= l (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my u= neducated opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consump= tion Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course= for all practical purposes there is probably
little discernible difference between any of these turbo configur= ations mentioned.............
 
   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!......= ......FWIW..................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

From: "Rogers, Bob J.&= quot; <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 = 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

Yes, I used the= Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoa= tings.html  I think that it is very effective to reduce heat in the engine compa= rtment.

&= nbsp;

It is only appl= ied at the Oklahoma City facility.

&= nbsp;

Bob

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2= 010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Did you have your turbine housing&nb= sp;and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant

coating and if so what and where ??........= .....

 

Thanks,
 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 = 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

Kelly,

&= nbsp;

There is one pr= etty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baffling) on o= ur EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplane= sdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190.  Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than the o= il pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into the engin= e oil pan.  Attached is a view from the front, which shows the hoses a= nd tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold. 

&= nbsp;

Bob

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 20= 10 10:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

 

Bob,

   I am waiting on a clarificatio= n  from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel

would turn the least rpm as altitude i= ncreases.............I know the  turbine housing

a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine= rpm as we climb but it is not clear to me

how the turbine wheel diameter and tri= m factor in.............Air density lessens with

altitude but I am not smart enough to = know if the larger or smaller turbine wheel

will have the highest rpm because of this f= actor as we climb ??.........

 

  Perhaps I am being anal about this b= ut and you are probably correct that that the

effect of a 3mm diameter differen= ce between the two turbine wheels is slight and

probably inconsequential...........If any o= f our multi-talented group members would

like to shine some light on this please jum= p in here !!..........

 

  On another note do you happen to hav= e any photos of your 13B/turbo installation

during construction that you would care to = share with the group ??..........You have

a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well though= t out installation which from your report

is working very well and I am sure oth= ers of the group would like to plagiarize.....<:)

 

Best Regards, 

   

Kelly Troyer
"Dy= ke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RW= S"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mi= stral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 = 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

Kelly,

&= nbsp;

I do not know w= hich wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn = a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference.  = Either one should be OK.  The Turbonetics people can probably explain = the performance differences between the two wheel sizes.

&= nbsp;

Bob

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, = 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Thanks much for the info............= .....Just one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"<= br> says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 = mm turbine wheel.......

  Do you have info as to what tur= bine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............<= /p>

 

Thanks Again,

 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 = 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions

Kelly,

&= nbsp;

I limit my take= off power to no more than 42 =93 of manifold pressure (=93MP=94), usually j= ust 40=94 .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no = more than about 36 =93 MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.  Engine RPM is about= 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power = settings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water = and prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on hot days)= with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings at or below those described abov= e.  One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a s= light tailwind) was 213 knots.  MP was 36=94, RPM 6,000.  I have = a 68=94 diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.

&= nbsp;

Bob

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