X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.105] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4435610 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:01:11 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.105; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 91919 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Aug 2010 17:00:34 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1282150834; bh=fGxYpGM0uEKg1/ly8kXUf3IpO5Hy7FzP2Nw8NcPkQM0=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=b1ZYWblddMC5WOK0Qm7el5wO+dN7rtm/OI1atoW9r7ckn4Sf0sN2qU9RYQyqNpOaLALUhroCkVoy6xNGsWVAk12z7hGHpfBNat3lApx5mhnHxbgQGzhGgiKSy9i9+zxguSz1VJbw/hUkInWQk5DezKn1SBr/3bsPhULo+xog+l8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lgfQ8xBFKFWIanSYhwD3EyXd52KnllM55gg6Wpas6m/TiBQ3EUAOXitxByFt3a07yEt+kbhJA5GES3ipM2s+yxnB/H0YVq6whBIGJX+Fhgm4Yjluq5vH/vIvgQr7p3oY8kxCpKgjo38MQqrd3uk6qOtlWmQkMwJ0L61JUlrV4lg=; Message-ID: <364449.86394.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: kEQQOGMVM1mJZtCNRmhWZpPeTPAy1zHtmt4x2fBVGSVvAUq 4Dl6W3OGg5OM5SnQMJZWOHJ.9dCDVGThDBbLBipOCXhVpU1yRs3eMexuN4ep fEKopyoiMEFyHGN8K0edUdEytGWtk5Wji2KBLWKj_WcIrG80AHkiLGyHtOck S65MBGSXSq74xn7rc3EjdBV8HGRc22RdKSCUerHCa_Nm8meKP32uErGx_tXu dOzWWAPigbNaGW2D3pqlLbHNc3VwZtnlrYkdmW_Io2V7bs07qGjTavreK16n uGe7kNiHDGcKS6COljIH4PCpap8x5YtMoJ5idRk6zT7h92zESCSzzdVJTLg- - Received: from [208.114.44.91] by web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:00:34 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1412101770-1282150834=:86394" --0-1412101770-1282150834=:86394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, John and All,=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Well I have bit the b= ullet and made my decision for a =0Aturbo............After much research, t= alking to Bob =0A=0Aand John and conferring with a=C2=A0"Turbonetics" deale= r I have ordered a TO4E-50 =0Atrim (compressor wheel), =0A=0Awet bearing ho= using, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and=C2=A01.15 a/r =0Arati= o turbine housing.........=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision=C2=A0= what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based on the =0Afact that= the=C2=A0f1-68mm=0Aturbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back p= ressure than the smaller =0Awheel (bigger hole) and=0Awill increase rpm les= s=C2=A0as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm wheel =0Aplus the= 1.15 a/r ratio=0Ahousing will=C2=A0slow rpm increase for the same reason..= ..........=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim comp= ressor wheel (Like John)=C2=A0verses the =0A60-1=C2=A0wheel (Like Bob)=C2= =A0was =0A=0Abased=C2=A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=C2=A0and my=C2=A0une= ducated opinion that the 50 trim =0Awheel would be running =0A=0Ain a more = efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" =0A(lbs = per min) of the 1.3L 13B =0A=0Athat I submitted to the group in a previous = post.............Of course for all =0Apractical purposes there is probably= =0Alittle=C2=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configurat= ions =0Amentioned.............=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0 At least I have livened up= the forum for a while =0A!!............FWIW..................<:)=0AKelly T= royer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Bac= kplate/Oil Manifold =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:= "Rogers, Bob J." =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM=0ASubject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=0A=0AYes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coatin= g, shown at this link. =0Ahttp://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html=C2=A0 = I think that it is very effective to =0Areduce heat in the engine compartme= nt.=0A=C2=A0=0AIt is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility.=0A=C2=A0= =0ABob=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Rotary motors in air= craft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0AKelly Troyer=0AS= ent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=C2=A0=0ABob,=0A=C2=A0 Did you have= your turbine housing=C2=A0and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant=0Aco= ating and if so what and where ??.............=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks,=0A=C2=A0= =0AKelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mi= stral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A_____________________= ___________=0A=0AFrom:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0ATo: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft =0ASent: Mon, August 16, 2010= 10:57:22 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0AKelly,=0A=C2=A0= =0AThere is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radia= tor =0Abaffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:=C2=A0 =0Ahttp://www.ea= a1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190.=C2=A0 Because the = =0Aoil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I = must use =0Aan electric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine oil p= an.=C2=A0 Attached is =0Aa view from the front, which shows the hoses and t= ubing from the turbo =0Acompressor to the intercooler and back to the intak= e manifold.=C2=A0 =0A=0A=C2=A0=0ABob=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A________________________= ________=0A=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of =0AKelly Troyer=0ASent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 A= M=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Question= s=0A=C2=A0=0ABob,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0 I am waiting on a clarification=C2=A0 from= "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine =0Awheel=0Awould=C2=A0turn the least= rpm as altitude increases.............I know the =C2=A0turbine =0Ahousing= =0Aa/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as=C2=A0we climb but it = is not clear =0Ato me=0Ahow=C2=A0the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor= in.............Air density =0Alessens with=0Aaltitude but=C2=A0I am not sm= art enough to know=C2=A0if the larger or smaller turbine =0Awheel=0Awill ha= ve the highest rpm because of this factor=C2=A0as we climb ??.........=0A= =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably= correct that that =0Athe =0A=0Aeffect of=C2=A0a 3mm diameter=C2=A0differen= ce between the two turbine wheels is slight and =0A=0Aprobably inconsequent= ial...........If any of our multi-talented group members =0Awould =0A=0Alik= e to shine some light on this please jump in here !!..........=0A=C2=A0=0A= =C2=A0 On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo = =0Ainstallation=0Aduring construction that you would care to share with the= group ??..........You =0Ahave=0Aa beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thoug= ht out installation which from your =0Areport=0Ais working very well and=C2= =A0I am sure others of the group would like to =0Aplagiarize.....<:)=0A=C2= =A0=0ABest Regards,=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta= "_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:" Rogers= , Bob J. " =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRo= tary] Re: Turbo Questions=0AKelly, =0A=C2=A0=0AI do not know which wheel is= in my turbo.=C2=A0 I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to =0Aturn a little m= ore slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the =0Aexhaust, bu= t it should not make much difference.=C2=A0 Either one should be OK.=C2=A0 = The =0ATurbonetics people can probably explain the performance differences = between the =0Atwo wheel sizes.=0A=C2=A0=0ABob=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A______________= __________________=0A=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0AKelly Troyer=0ASent: Thursday, August 12, = 2010 3:44 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tur= bo Questions=0A=C2=A0=0ABob,=0A=C2=A0 Thanks much for the info.............= ....Just one more =0Aquestion..............Info from "Turbonetics"=0Asays t= he 1.15=C2=A0a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm tur= bine =0Awheel.......=0A=C2=A0 Do you have info as to what=C2=A0turbine whee= l was installed in your 60-1 turbo =0A??..............=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks Ag= ain,=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/= EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A________= ________________________=0A=0AFrom:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0A= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Thu, Au= gust 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0AKelly= ,=0A=C2=A0=0AI limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manif= old pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), =0Ausually just 40=E2=80=9D .=C2=A0 At= altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no =0Amore than about 3= 6 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.=C2=A0 Engine RPM is about 5,800.=C2= =A0 The =0Aturbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, but I hav= e to watch =0Aengine water and oil temps at higher power settings.=C2=A0 I = do not want to run more =0Athan 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 = degrees.=C2=A0 I can maintain these =0Atemps (even on hot days) with cowl f= lap settings from closed to full open as =0Along as I keep the power settin= gs at or below those described above.=C2=A0 One day, I =0Aclimbed to 11,000= feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 =0Aknots.=C2= =A0 MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=C2=A0 I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84= pitch Prince P-tip =0Afixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction= unit.=0A=C2=A0=0ABob --0-1412101770-1282150834=:86394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Bob, John and All,
=0A
 
=0A     Well I have bit the bullet and made my decis= ion for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob
=0Aand John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a= TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel), =0A
wet bearing housing, big sh= aft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 a/r ratio turbine housin= g.........
=0A
 
=0A
     The de= cision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based on the = fact that the f1-68mm
=0A
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes= less exhaust back pressure than the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
= =0A
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to = the F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
=0A
housing will sl= ow rpm increase for the same reason............
=0A
 
= =0A
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor w= heel (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
= =0A
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducat= ed opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
=0A
in a more = efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" (lbs per= min) of the 1.3L 13B
=0A
that I submitted to the group in a prev= ious post.............Of course for all practical purposes there is probabl= y
=0A
little discernible difference between any of these turb= o configurations mentioned.............
=0A
 
=0A
&n= bsp;  At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!............F= WIW..................<:)
=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil M= anifold =0A

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: "R= ogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Tue, August= 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A=0A=0A
=0A

Yes, I used th= e Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headerco= atings.html  I think that it is very effective to reduce = heat in the engine compartment.

=0A

 

=0A

It is only applied at the Oklahoma City fa= cility.

=0A

 

=0A

Bob

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [m= ailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
S= ent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A

Bob,

=0A
= =0A

  Did you have your turbine housing = and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant

=0A
= =0A

coating and if so what and where ??...........= ..

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Thanks,
 

=0A

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Del= ta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold

=0A
=0A

 <= /FONT>

=0A
=0A

 =0A

=0A
=0A
=0A=
=0A

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRoge= rs@FDIC.gov>
To: Rota= ry motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AMSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions

=0A
=0A

Kelly,

=0A

 

=0A

There is one pretty good picture of the turbo i= nstallation (before radiator baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:&= nbsp; http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D1= 90.  Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower t= han the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into = the engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the front, which shows th= e hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back to= the intake manifold. 

=0A

 

=0A

<= FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial>Bob

=0A

=  

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM<= BR>To: Rotary motors in air= craft
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

Bob,

=0A
=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">   I am waitin= g on a clarification  from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel=

=0A
=0A

would tur= n the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the  turbine = housing

=0A
=0A

a/r r= atio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not c= lear to me

=0A
=0A

how&= nbsp;the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air density = lessens with

=0A
=0A

al= titude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller= turbine wheel

=0A
=0A

= will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??.......= ..

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

  Perhaps I am = being anal about this but and you are probably correct that that the

=0A
=0A

effect of a 3mm= diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and

=0A
=0A

probably inconsequ= ential...........If any of our multi-talented group members would

=0A
=0A

= like to shine some ligh= t on this please jump in here !!..........

=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A

  On another note do you happen to have any photo= s of your 13B/turbo installation

=0A
=0A

during construction that you would care to share with the= group ??..........You have

=0A
=0A

a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation = which from your report

=0A
=0A

is working very well and I am sure others of the group would l= ike to plagiarize.....<:)

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Best Regards, 

=0A
=0A

   

=0A

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
= "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =

=0A
=0A

 =

=0A
=0A

 

=0A<= DIV>=0A
<= FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>=0A
=0A
= =0A

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.= gov>
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Que= stions

=0A
=0A

Kelly,

=0A

 

=0A

I do not know which wheel is in my turbo.  I expe= ct the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a la= rger surface area to absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much differ= ence.  Either one should be OK.  The Turbonetics people can proba= bly explain the performance differences between the two wheel sizes.=

=0A

 

=0A

Bob

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fly= rotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of= Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
= =0A

Bob,

=0A
=0A

  Thanks much for the info.................Just one= more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a= /r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine wheel....= ...

=0A
=0A

  Do y= ou have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo= ??..............

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Thank= s Again,

=0A
=0A

 = ;

=0A

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke= Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BR= ogers@FDIC.gov>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM<= BR>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions

=0A

Kelly,

=0A

 

=0A

I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), = usually just 40=E2=80=9D .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I ge= nerally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots. = ; Engine RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably mor= e boost than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher= power settings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or= water and prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on ho= t days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep = the power settings at or below those described above.  One day, I clim= bed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 = knots.  MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D diam= eter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.

=0A

 = ;

=0A

B= ob

<= /DIV>
--0-1412101770-1282150834=:86394--