X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4366119 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 04:46:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD451735C5 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:45:41 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 03C3EBEC009 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:45:39 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <96E28DFC0B1B4723A2A6CB990FB570E2@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:45:47 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01CB123B.2102E780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100621-1, 06/21/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CB123B.2102E780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bryan, Dynamic intake effect is helpful for any intake as it tunes the rotor = closing event pulse by way of staging the pulse reversal to coincide = with the next intake event. The reversal boosts the velocity, therefore = the VE and power. Slide throttles are favored by some as the butterfly throttle has some = turbulence over the butterfly which causes some drag, reducing velocity = etc. The slide throttle has advantages in that it can be placed very = close to the ports, disadvantages are they are prone to fod jamming if = incoming air is unfiltered. George ( down under) Yeah, I just saw those MP taps for the oil injection on another site. I'm = no expert, but that seems like an odd place to gather MP data. =20 I only asked about the slide throttle, I certainly had not decided = that it was the answer. =20 Sounds like you recommend the traditional TB - manifold - runners = setup for the PP as well. =20 I hate to ask, but what about the Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with = a traditional log-type manifold? =20 Bryan =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 7:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines =20 Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the = difficulty of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I'd imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan =20 Bryan, Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his engine and = eventually got it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain getting it = to work with that slide throttle since getting manifold pressure was = hard to do since there IS NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the = port. No one seems to consider these 'details' when planning their = installation. I'm of the same opinion as Bill on the slide throttle- = Why the hell do it? Mark eventually got a usable MP signal by taping = into the oil injection ports in the rotor housing but that's not ideal. = BTW, several people referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I = thought it was a 2nd gen 13B. I could be wrong. Pity that the airplane = was lost in that ground accident, I had not heard about that. Tracy On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, wrote: Bryan, The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND = IT? Have you ever tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's = system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS = but it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow = and mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe = those are built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing = while you run the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active" = parts as ignition and injection. My advise would be to be sure that you = triple check all your wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys = have run into problems in their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a = genuine tuning problem and you will be miles ahead. Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the = difficulty of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I'd imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Winberry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the = difficulty of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I'd imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 6:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines =20 Bryan, As a reference the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP = normally aspirated. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine = producing that level of power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF = very comparable to an angle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This = engine was dynoed with butterfly valves in the housing. These p-ports = were 1-5/8' diameter optimized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher = but you were already at peak power anyway. Larger ports will make more = power at higher RPM. Tuning will become more critical with the larger = ports. A personal anecdote here. I built a high reving motorcycle engine = in 1978 with all the "best" parts at the time. The engine was unreal at = high revs, but if you transitioned to anything below 4000 RPM by = shutting the throttle off and quickly opening it again the engine would = "catch" or hit an RPM plateau and would rev no higher. In fact the = engine would die if not returned to idle! This horrible malfunction was = TUNED OUT later, and the solution was surprisingly simple, however = difficult to find. The key here is that many people underestimate the = job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are two aspects, first the = initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then second, and most = overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cycles of a high = power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. Powersport = used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other = elastomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because = there are different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a = car you can usually get away with epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a = different animal. The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power = for long periods and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is = mechanically tough enough but you need to design your subsystems like a = race car that will see a 500 mile long straight-away! When Paul Lamar = ran one of the newsletter guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got = great numbers, but only after changing to an intake that MazdaTrix had = spent lots of time tuning. P-ports will run great, and even idle well if = not too oversized, but don't expect the tuning to be real easy. Remember = you are designing a new intake, exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam = timing all at once. The rotary is very much like a two-cycle in that = respect. The results can be very worth while if you understand the = difficulty involved. Bill Jepson =20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Bryan, Not all P-ports are equal. More power =3D more fuel. Talk to Bill Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports. George ( down under). All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake = design has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my = Renesis. It's still on the stand after rebuild. I haven't constructed the manifold yet anyway. =20 I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? =20 Is slide throttle best option? =20 Need to search archives I guess. =20 Good info Lynn, Thanks =20 Bryan =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines =20 In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, = rv-4mike@cox.net writes: Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" = actually aid performance. =20 Mike Wills =20 =20 It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close = events, but the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter = to open and close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing. = In the periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive = at zero overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. = The apex seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves = gasses in one direction or another.=20 =20 In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more = effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex = seal is above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the = exhaust port. Flow between the two is unobstructed. =20 So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust = port, and combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses = flowing partway back into the intake runners. =20 This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems = quit docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly = taxi in an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data useless as = there will be fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned = fuel reaching the F/A sensor. =20 =20 The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long = duration cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the = mixture is burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and = you will see what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until = you find the "WOW" RPM, and be ready with all available rudder.=20 =20 When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that = there were places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This = with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported = the rear end getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. =20 Why yes it was.......... =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CB123B.2102E780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bryan,
Dynamic intake effect is helpful for = any intake as=20 it tunes the rotor closing event pulse by way of staging the pulse = reversal to=20 coincide with the next intake event. The reversal boosts the velocity, = therefore=20 the VE and power.
Slide throttles are favored by some as = the=20 butterfly throttle has some turbulence over the butterfly which causes = some=20 drag, reducing velocity etc. The slide throttle has advantages in that = it can be=20 placed very close to the ports, disadvantages are they are prone to fod = jamming=20 if incoming air is unfiltered.
George ( down under)

Yeah,

I just saw = those MP=20 taps for the oil injection on another site.  I=92m no expert, but = that=20 seems like an odd place to gather MP = data.

 

I only = asked about=20 the slide throttle, I certainly had not decided that it was the=20 answer.

 

Sounds like = you=20 recommend the traditional TB =96 manifold =96 runners setup for the PP = as=20 well.

 

I hate to = ask, but=20 what about the Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with a traditional = log-type=20 manifold?

 

Bryan

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 = 7:29=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B = rotary=20 engines

 

Bill,

I have = purchased=20 the EC-3.  Will this make any difference in the difficulty of=20 tuning?  Is it a good choice for a PP setup?

I=92d = imagine I=20 should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.

Bryan =20

Bryan,
  =20 Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his engine and = eventually got=20 it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain getting it to work with = that=20 slide throttle since getting manifold pressure was hard to do since = there IS=20 NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the port.  No one = seems to=20 consider these 'details' when planning their installation.  I'm = of the=20 same opinion as Bill on the slide throttle-  Why the hell do = it? =20 Mark eventually got a usable MP signal by taping into the oil = injection ports=20 in the rotor housing but that's not ideal. 

BTW, several = people=20 referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I thought it was a 2nd gen = 13B.  I could be wrong.  Pity that the airplane was lost in = that=20 ground accident, I had not heard about that.
Tracy

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, <wrjjrs@aol.com>=20 wrote:

Bryan,

The = importance of=20 any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT? Have you ever=20 tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's = system seems=20 like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS = but it has=20 been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow and = mixture=20 meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe those are = built=20 into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing while you run the = engine,=20 the intake and exhaust are just as "active" parts as ignition and = injection.=20 My advise would be to be sure that you triple check all your wiring = before you=20 install it. Too many of the guys have run into problems in their = wiring. Be=20 sure you are dealing with a genuine tuning problem and you will be = miles=20 ahead.

Bill,

I have = purchased=20 the EC-3.  Will this make any difference in the difficulty of=20 tuning?  Is it a good choice for a PP setup?

I=92d = imagine I=20 should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.

Bryan=20  

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun = 21, 2010=20 3:50 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary=20 engines

Bill,

I have = purchased the=20 EC-3.  Will this make any difference in the difficulty of = tuning? =20 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?

I=92d = imagine I should=20 aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.

Bryan=20  

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 = 6:41=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B = rotary=20 engines

 

Bryan,

As a = reference the=20 original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP normally aspirated. = The fuel=20 flows are very similar to any other engine producing that level of = power.=20 Steve tells me that they were seeing FF very comparable to an angle = valve=20 IO-360 producing identical power. This engine was dynoed with = butterfly valves=20 in the housing. These p-ports were 1-5/8' diameter optimized for = 6000=20 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were already at peak power = anyway.=20 Larger ports will make more power at higher RPM. Tuning will become=20 more critical with the larger ports. A personal anecdote here. I = built a=20 high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all the "best" parts at the = time.=20 The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you transitioned to = anything below=20 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and quickly opening it again the = engine=20 would "catch" or hit an RPM plateau and would rev no higher. = In fact=20 the engine would die if not returned to idle! This horrible = malfunction was=20 TUNED OUT later, and the solution was surprisingly simple, however = difficult=20 to find. The key here is that many people underestimate the job = of=20 installing and tuning p-ports. There are two aspects, first the = initial=20 install being sure there are no leaks . Then second, and most = overlooked is=20 that the system must tolerate the heat cycles of a high power engine = without=20 DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. Powersport used an insert with = o-rings=20 sealing the port. O-rings or other elastomers work much better than = epoxy on=20 long-term sealing because there are different expansion rates between = the port=20 and the epoxy. On a car you can usually get away with epoxy for a = while.=20 An aircraft is a different animal. The aircraft engine needs to = tolerate=20 80-100% power for long periods and then long cold-soaks on the = ground.=20 The rotary is mechanically tough enough but you need to design your = subsystems=20 like a race car that will see a 500 mile long straight-away! =  When=20 Paul Lamar ran one of the newsletter guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, = They=20 got great numbers, but only after changing to an intake that MazdaTrix = had=20 spent lots of time tuning. P-ports will run great, and even idle well = if not=20 too oversized, but don't expect the tuning to be real easy. Remember = you are=20 designing a new intake, exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam = timing all at=20 once. The rotary is very much like a two-cycle in that respect. The = results=20 can be very worth while if you understand the difficulty=20 involved.

Bill=20 Jepson

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun = 21, 2010=20 2:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary=20 engines

 Bryan,

Not all = P-ports are=20 equal.

More power = =3D more=20 fuel.

Talk to = Bill Jepson=20 ( on here) about availability of new=20 P-ports.

George ( = down=20 under).

All this = talk of=20 additional power coupled with an easier intake design has me = thinking I=20 should probably go this direction with my Renesis.  It=92s = still on the=20 stand after rebuild.

I = haven=92t=20 constructed the manifold yet anyway.

 

I assume = fuel flow=20 will be higher than normal?

 

Is slide = throttle=20 best option?

 

Need to = search=20 archives I guess.

 

Good info = Lynn,=20 Thanks

 

Bryan

 

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn = Hanover
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 = 12:15=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B = rotary=20 engines

 

In a message dated 6/21/2010 = 11:03:01=20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:

Thanks for the=20 feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor = port design"=20 actually aid performance.

 

Mike = Wills

 

=

 

It is not obvious until you = start=20 graphing the open and close events, but the side port which uses the = side of=20 the rotor as a shutter to open and close the port, offers Mazda = great=20 latitude in port timing.  In the periphery ported engine (both = ports)=20 it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine that = will=20 produce any power at all. The apex seal does not close off either = port at=20 all, it just valves gasses in one direction or another. =

 

In addition, the overlap of = the=20 periphery ported engine is far more effective flow wise than overlap = in the=20 side ported engine. One apex seal is above the intake port when the = opposing=20 apex seal is below the exhaust port. Flow between the two is=20 unobstructed.

 

So, at low RPM you get fresh = mixture=20 leaving through the exhaust port, and combinations of burned and = unburned=20 fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partway back into the intake=20 runners.

 

This reduces the low RPM = output to the=20 point that the engine seems quit docile, and is easy to drive around = in the=20 car, slowly, or possibly taxi in an aircraft.  This would make = off idle=20 tuning data useless as there will be fuel burning right on top of = the EGT=20 probes, and unburned fuel reaching the F/A sensor.  =

 

The engine will = act along the=20 lines of a piston engine with a long duration cam. When the engine = reaches=20 its happy RPM where all of the mixture is burning inside the engine, = it will=20 step up on the "CAM" and you will = see what=20 a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the = "WOW" RPM,=20 and be ready with all available rudder.

 

When we first ran a factory = periphery=20 port engine, we found that there were places on the track that would = not=20 allow full throttle. This with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev = limiters. The driver reported the rear end getting real loose = cresting hills=20 and bumps.

 

Why yes it=20 was..........

 

Lynn E.=20 Hanover 

=

 

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