X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4316510 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 May 2010 22:46:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.80; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id JRyX1e0041ZMdJ4A8SlhwC; Mon, 17 May 2010 02:45:41 +0000 Received: from WschertzPC ([71.57.77.95]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id JSlc1e00D23NHuF8cSlg5i; Mon, 17 May 2010 02:45:41 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Bill Schertz" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:45:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C4_01CAF541.1EC3FAC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01CAF541.1EC3FAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is my guess also, haven't wanted to take the time to recalibrate = those probes until more time flown off. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing From: Al Gietzen=20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump Bill; I'd say the temp measurements are bit off; and it doesn't take much. If = the DT was 15o, those numbers would change by a factor of 3. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:55 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump One added fact, the plane with me and full fuel is ~1958#, getting 1100 = fpm at 100 mph. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing From: Bill Schertz=20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump A very good question. Let me describe the setup and areas of = uncertainty. 1. It is 50-50 glycol 2. Temp into the coolers is measured with a CHT thermocouple clamped to = the 1-3/8" tube that comes from the water pump, just before it is split = to go to the two evaporator cores. 3. Temp out of the coolers is measured with another CHT thermocouple = clamped to the 1-38" return line to the water pump, just after the flows = have rejoined. There is also a VDO type temperature sensor at that point = in the loop, and it reads very close to the CHT thermocouple. 4. The pressure reading is done on the coolant_in (water pump out) line, = I have a 10 psi cap on the reservoir, which is connected to the low = pressure side of the water pump. The engine when cold shows no pressure, = it comes alive when the engine starts, and pressure varies with engine = RPM, and the base pressure rises to ~10 psi as the fluid warms (based on = pressure reading after engine shutdown while engine still hot). 5. I have not yet fully calibrated the fuel consumption totalizer on the = EM-2, or the gallon/hour reading, but at 6000 engine RPM I am seeing = between 8-9 gph, and at wide open throttle (7000) ~12 if I remember = correctly. Didn't look at fuel flow during climb, as I was busy with = other things. 6. The plane as currently configured is with myself and full fuel, gets = ~1100 fpm at 110 mph on take off to 3000 feet (still nailing down these = numbers) I don't believe I am getting 100-143 gpm from the system, the delta is = obtained by subtracting two relatively large numbers, I think the delta = has to be greater also, but am not sure where the inaccuracy is. When I = have nothing else to do, I could dunk the probes in boiling water as a = calibration test. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing From: Al Gietzen=20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump On the water. The flow is high enough that very little temperature drop = through the radiators is required to remove the heat from the engine. Q = =3D (mass flow)*(heat-capacity)*(delta-T). If you increase the mass = flow, you decrease the deltaT. I get about a 5*F delta T on the = radiators, on the other hand, the air coming out of the rads is about = 100F higher than the air going in. Bill, Further to my query yesterday; putting some numbers on the 5o DT gives = me this: With 35 gpm, engine power is 55 hp with pure water; 40 hp with 50/50 = water/EG. 160 hp would require 103 gpm with pure water, 143 with 50/50 water/EG. What am I missing? Al ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01CAF541.1EC3FAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That is my guess also, haven't wanted = to take the=20 time to recalibrate those probes until more time flown off.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

From: Al Gietzen
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water = pump

Bill;

 

I=92d say = the temp=20 measurements are bit off; and it doesn=92t take much. If the = DT was = 15o,=20 those numbers would change by a factor of 3.

 

Al

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill = Schertz
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:55=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: alternative water pump

 

One added fact, the plane = with me=20 and full fuel is ~1958#, getting 1100 fpm at 100 = mph.

Bill Schertz
KIS = Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

 

From: Bill = Schertz=20

Sent: Sunday,=20 May 16, 2010 6:43 PM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water = pump

 

A very good question. Let = me=20 describe the setup and areas of uncertainty.

 

1. It is 50-50=20 glycol

2. Temp into the coolers = is measured=20 with a CHT thermocouple clamped to the 1-3/8" tube that comes from the = water=20 pump, just before it is split to go to the two evaporator=20 cores.

3. Temp out of the coolers = is=20 measured with another CHT thermocouple clamped to the 1-38" return line = to the=20 water pump, just after the flows have rejoined. There is also a VDO type = temperature sensor at that point in the loop, and it reads very close to = the CHT=20 thermocouple.

4. The pressure reading is = done on=20 the coolant_in (water pump out) line, I have a 10 psi cap on the = reservoir,=20 which is connected to the low pressure side of the water pump. The = engine when=20 cold shows no pressure, it comes alive when the engine starts, and = pressure=20 varies with engine RPM, and the base pressure rises to ~10 psi as the = fluid=20 warms (based on pressure reading after engine shutdown while engine = still=20 hot).

5. I have not yet fully = calibrated=20 the fuel consumption totalizer on the EM-2, or the gallon/hour reading, = but at=20 6000 engine RPM I am seeing between 8-9 gph, and at wide open throttle = (7000)=20 ~12 if I remember correctly. Didn't look at fuel flow during climb, as I = was=20 busy with other things.

6. The plane as currently = configured=20 is with myself and full fuel, gets ~1100 fpm at 110 mph on take off to = 3000 feet=20 (still nailing down these numbers)

 

I don't believe I am = getting 100-143=20 gpm from the system, the delta is obtained by subtracting two relatively = large=20 numbers, I think the delta has to be greater also, but am not sure where = the=20 inaccuracy is. When I have nothing else to do, I could dunk the probes = in=20 boiling water as a calibration test.

 

 

Bill Schertz
KIS = Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

 

From: Al = Gietzen=20

Sent: Sunday,=20 May 16, 2010 10:07 AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water = pump

 

On the water. The flow is = high=20 enough that very little temperature drop through the radiators is = required to=20 remove the heat from the engine. Q =3D (mass = flow)*(heat-capacity)*(delta-T). If=20 you increase the mass flow, you decrease the deltaT.  I get about a = 5*F=20 delta T on the radiators, on the other hand, the air coming out of the = rads is=20 about 100F higher than the air going in.

Bill,

Further to = my query=20 yesterday; putting some numbers on the 5o DT gives me=20 this:

With 35 = gpm, engine=20 power is 55 hp with pure water; 40 hp with 50/50 = water/EG.

 

160 hp = would require=20 103 gpm with pure water, 143 with 50/50 water/EG.

 

What am I=20 missing?

 

Al

 

 

 

 

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