X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4316440 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 May 2010 20:15:10 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100517001435.VVCM20234.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sun, 16 May 2010 20:14:35 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([174.65.188.54]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id JQCY1e0051ArRLm03QCYXL; Sun, 16 May 2010 20:12:32 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=J3o2LjFkw/E22IlEgQUY/UQPCs18Jo95jye/5rN+HKE= c=1 sm=1 a=zk8b5mKjuVwA:10 a=ood2b7iyd8MA:10 a=KDuwdIr/YLANGuoY0nAeCQ==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=JCjoNgCTkt8Ov51eYDEA:9 a=XeNxHdas681vkbNDZ6sA:7 a=ZBFZ5tq7oMLe4dyp5IqG1A_1QDUA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=e1FRBt2bixFSr3yL_UQA:9 a=-pQ2E_XJYreXk-CUgvYA:7 a=9NWfvXCs_aFTBp_aOOY-6i-Mt0EA:4 a=KDuwdIr/YLANGuoY0nAeCQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:14:08 -0800 Message-ID: <150B76FE1CA64834A2A60BC9E1673DEB@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01CAF51B.32057120" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6856 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: Acr1U1iJ8sk0LxGSQgmosNPz4Ai+vQACjdgg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CAF51B.32057120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill; =20 I'd say the temp measurements are bit off; and it doesn't take much. If = the DT was 15o, those numbers would change by a factor of 3. =20 Al =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:55 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump =20 One added fact, the plane with me and full fuel is ~1958#, getting 1100 = fpm at 100 mph. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing =20 From: Bill Schertz =20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump =20 A very good question. Let me describe the setup and areas of = uncertainty. =20 1. It is 50-50 glycol 2. Temp into the coolers is measured with a CHT thermocouple clamped to = the 1-3/8" tube that comes from the water pump, just before it is split to = go to the two evaporator cores. 3. Temp out of the coolers is measured with another CHT thermocouple = clamped to the 1-38" return line to the water pump, just after the flows have rejoined. There is also a VDO type temperature sensor at that point in = the loop, and it reads very close to the CHT thermocouple. 4. The pressure reading is done on the coolant_in (water pump out) line, = I have a 10 psi cap on the reservoir, which is connected to the low = pressure side of the water pump. The engine when cold shows no pressure, it comes alive when the engine starts, and pressure varies with engine RPM, and = the base pressure rises to ~10 psi as the fluid warms (based on pressure = reading after engine shutdown while engine still hot). 5. I have not yet fully calibrated the fuel consumption totalizer on the EM-2, or the gallon/hour reading, but at 6000 engine RPM I am seeing = between 8-9 gph, and at wide open throttle (7000) ~12 if I remember correctly. Didn't look at fuel flow during climb, as I was busy with other things. 6. The plane as currently configured is with myself and full fuel, gets ~1100 fpm at 110 mph on take off to 3000 feet (still nailing down these numbers) =20 I don't believe I am getting 100-143 gpm from the system, the delta is obtained by subtracting two relatively large numbers, I think the delta = has to be greater also, but am not sure where the inaccuracy is. When I have nothing else to do, I could dunk the probes in boiling water as a calibration test. =20 =20 Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing =20 From: Al Gietzen =20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump =20 On the water. The flow is high enough that very little temperature drop through the radiators is required to remove the heat from the engine. Q = =3D (mass flow)*(heat-capacity)*(delta-T). If you increase the mass flow, = you decrease the deltaT. I get about a 5*F delta T on the radiators, on the other hand, the air coming out of the rads is about 100F higher than the = air going in. Bill, Further to my query yesterday; putting some numbers on the 5o DT gives = me this: With 35 gpm, engine power is 55 hp with pure water; 40 hp with 50/50 water/EG. =20 160 hp would require 103 gpm with pure water, 143 with 50/50 water/EG. =20 What am I missing? =20 Al =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CAF51B.32057120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill;

 

I’d say the temp = measurements are bit off; and it doesn’t take much. If the DT was = 15o, those numbers would change by a factor of 3.

 

Al

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz
Sent: Sunday, May 16, = 2010 3:55 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alternative water pump

 

One added fact, the plane = with me and full fuel is ~1958#, getting 1100 fpm at 100 mph.

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

 

From: Bill Schertz

Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:43 = PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = alternative water pump

 

A very good question. Let = me describe the setup and areas of uncertainty.

 

1. It is 50-50 = glycol

2. Temp into the coolers is = measured with a CHT thermocouple clamped to the 1-3/8" tube that comes from = the water pump, just before it is split to go to the two evaporator = cores.

3. Temp out of the coolers = is measured with another CHT thermocouple clamped to the 1-38" return = line to the water pump, just after the flows have rejoined. There is also a VDO = type temperature sensor at that point in the loop, and it reads very close to = the CHT thermocouple.

4. The pressure reading is = done on the coolant_in (water pump out) line, I have a 10 psi cap on the = reservoir, which is connected to the low pressure side of the water pump. The = engine when cold shows no pressure, it comes alive when the engine starts, and = pressure varies with engine RPM, and the base pressure rises to ~10 psi as the = fluid warms (based on pressure reading after engine shutdown while engine = still hot).

5. I have not yet fully = calibrated the fuel consumption totalizer on the EM-2, or the gallon/hour reading, = but at 6000 engine RPM I am seeing between 8-9 gph, and at wide open throttle = (7000) ~12 if I remember correctly. Didn't look at fuel flow during climb, as I = was busy with other things.

6. The plane as currently = configured is with myself and full fuel, gets ~1100 fpm at 110 mph on take off to = 3000 feet (still nailing down these numbers)

 

I don't believe I am = getting 100-143 gpm from the system, the delta is obtained by subtracting two relatively = large numbers, I think the delta has to be greater also, but am not sure where = the inaccuracy is. When I have nothing else to do, I could dunk the probes = in boiling water as a calibration test.

 

 

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

 

From: Al Gietzen

Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:07 = AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = alternative water pump

 

On the water. The flow is = high enough that very little temperature drop through the radiators is = required to remove the heat from the engine. Q =3D (mass = flow)*(heat-capacity)*(delta-T). If you increase the mass flow, you decrease the deltaT.  I get about a = 5*F delta T on the radiators, on the other hand, the air coming out of the = rads is about 100F higher than the air going in.

Bill,

Further to my query yesterday; putting some numbers on the 5o = DT gives me = this:

With 35 gpm, engine power is 55 hp with pure water; 40 hp with 50/50 = water/EG.

 

160 hp would require 103 gpm with pure water, 143 with 50/50 = water/EG.

 

What am I missing?

 

Al

 

 

 

 

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