Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #50634
From: <bktrub@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:17 -0400
To: <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Heck, I'd be happy just to be able to purchase the pieces to build my own lightweight, all-aluminum  13B P-port using my existing engine. The thought of my plane with over 200 hp and weighing under 950 lbs makes me feel all funny inside : )  . Right now,  the engine might be making  180-190 but  the plane weighs 1090  lbs.  It hasn't flown yet. Soon....
 
Brian Trubee
RV-4 13BREW



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 8:57 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)

Bill,
 
I'm sure you are right, less expensive is more marketable. Same point I tried to make earlier. It was a joke.
 
Having said that, not sure I wouldn’t be willing to pay a sizable amount (easy to say since its all hypothetical). The thing is I've been thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few years now. What would it be worth to get HR performance without having to build an entirely new airplane?
 
Since we are talking hypothetically, what would that $25,000 engine look like? How much of it would be Mazda and how much of it would be custom? If we were willing to split the difference and essentially retain all the Mazda pieces except the iron housings are we still talking about $25K? Just thinking out loud here.
 
Mike

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)

Mike,
Would you be interested for $25,000? You see that would be the cost at least in todays dollars. Some people would be interested I'm sure, but not enough to base a business on. I think the less expensive version is the probable money maker.
Bill Jepson
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)

Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, Ratech went way off the course with their glass panel stuff - should have stuck to the original plan. They were listed in the latest Kitplanes engine round up so I assume that means they at least responded to Kitplanes data call whether or not they are still actively selling anything.
 
I guess my point (and I'm sure you are well aware) was that many if not most of us have gone this route at least partially because of cost. I'm surprised that Eggenfellner has managed to remain in business selling FWF packages that rival the cost of a new Lyc. A friend bought one and spent many hours (and months) working out the bugs to actually make it work.
 
Happy to see your last sentence. Tracy indeed has what I believe to be the right business model. Without him I doubt there would be many rotaries flying and I doubt there would be much activity on this list. I hope that your efforts serve to fill some of the gaps that Tracy doesn’t address (engines, intakes, exhausts) using the same keep it basic but functional model that Tracy uses.
 
To start with, I would like to place an order for the 164 pound, over 200HP engine please. Smile emoticon
 
Mike  

Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)

In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
George,
 
Hoping that they produce something that not only works, but is within financial reach. The history to date of FWF packages (including the last iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pricing that is simply out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn’t be flying one, but given the choice between being a beta tester for somebody's brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans for the same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc.
 
Mike Wills
Mike and group, A little history.
There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distinct "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacular equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far removed from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur gear planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper that worked so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the shakes. BTW This should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won't idle! This was a system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After building this machine they took stock and realized that they would have to sell the package for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and figured they would have a hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that they called the "Iron Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified to live in aircraft use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel injection and the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package used the internal ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the custom planetary. This package was ready to sell and they had set an intended price of $14,000. I think they would have had trouble making them fast enough at that price. This information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett was killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve and Everett had been partners in business for over 20 years, including a long time before Powersport and Steve was so hurt by the loss of his friend that he could not continue.
 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin. This is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would change the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which took a long time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the package. There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thesis by Steve Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site. Every change costs money and the final price they put on the system really takes it out of the low price zone. It was their right to make the changes they wanted to after they bought the company but, and understand that this is my personal opinion, I think that they shot themselves in the foot. If they had sold the original package while developing the updates concurrently I believe they really would have had something. People really don't understand how much work goes into developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered the ills of the current economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they are currently willing to produce or sell the package. I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the original stuff and it was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer myself and I've never seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. S. S. principle. We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the price of a standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only one so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the rotary engines flying. We need to get back to the basics.
Bill Jepson
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