X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4179131 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:37:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100326013632.YVMS22711.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:36:32 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id xdcW1d00K1k005Q04dcW34; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:36:31 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=yjuDh3Ma92GrVaJxYD7gfORM7ilP1Knqouyx6SOEBcg= c=1 sm=1 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Lwl2SDttHiL9eB-sGFgA:9 a=jiAmxILEkepOtG1nAA4A:7 a=OvzTuacNuJS94FDY3aQ-hoQ3CeIA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=gZ1MTL68CgticvTn:21 a=8zCwn4AwZnOK_LvU:21 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=arGwBttLRabKmClnbsEA:9 a=5aYG57DQrbj9Dd4-39EA:7 a=RO_88N1D389wNr5lCjIDFfZILJIA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=U6wXhEmk9SJI6FY9:21 a=Qoa5gOsv2enSoump:21 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:36:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0105_01CACC4A.164C3620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CACC4A.164C3620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to quote speeds here, quote = speeds, not calculated speeds based on so many variables that the end = result is meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on the other = list, not here. As far as I know, Don's best reported speed is 174 IAS = (and IAS is not all that meaningful either). Based on performance that = Don has actually reported his performance is roughly equivalent to mine = (and I'm both prop and gearing limited). His performance may have = improved since he reported those numbers. In any case I'd prefer to = stick to facts. Speaking of the other list, Paul has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno at = Mazdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet to = prove it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction = ratio was around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine RPM). I believe they also had = dyno data to prove it. I'm anxious to hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B = performs. Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Mike, Don didn't report speed. I took his pitch and rpm and figured it. That = speed at cruise is what he would get with no slippage or "lift" from the = prop. Most of the folks with the Catto are actually getting higher = speeds than would be calculated which indicates that the prop is = producing "lift", not slippage.=20 =20 But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher than any I have seen. = With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower. If you aint making the rpm, you = aint making the horsepower. It doesn't seem to matter what you have = done to the engine.ported, PP, turbo, supercharger. If you look at the = dyno charts that are all over the web, you will see that torque is = pretty flat after about 4K, about 150 ft lbs. The horsepower is around = 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K. You can get more = horsepower than that, but only if you scream it up to 8K or 8.5K. All = the charts I have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at all = rpms. The difference in total horsepower is always a higher max rpm. =20 We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make 200 horsepower.it = aint happening! Not with the rotary. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Bill, =20 I went back and looked at Don's previous post. Saw reference to climb = performance, RPMs, and temps, but no speed numbers. Has he previously = reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post from him that I saw with any = speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If he's over 200 now, wow = those are good numbers! =20 Mike Wills =20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 =20 Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone with a Renesis so = far. In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good on any 13B. Don is = getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing at over 1400 fpm = with it. The only way he is going to do better is either with an = electric CS prop and/or turbo. If he shaves the prop off to say, 74", = he will get a couple hundred more rpm, but will probably lose in total = thrust. Diameter is a big determiner in thrust.=20 =20 I would like more pictures of Dons intake and exhaust! =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 1. When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought = that comes to mind is that there is too much prop. =20 =20 Ditto. =20 Al G ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CACC4A.164C3620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to = quote=20 speeds here, quote speeds, not calculated speeds based on so many = variables that=20 the end result is meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on = the other=20 list, not here. As far as I know, Don's best reported speed is 174 IAS=20 (and IAS is not all that meaningful either). Based on performance = that Don=20 has actually reported his performance is roughly equivalent to mine = (and=20 I'm both prop and gearing limited). His performance may have = improved since=20 he reported those numbers. In any case I'd prefer to stick to=20 facts.
 
Speaking of the other list, Paul has = video of a PP=20 Renesis on a dyno  at Mazdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. = And he=20 had the dyno sheet to prove it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop = RPM (their=20 reduction ratio was around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine RPM). I believe = they=20 also had dyno data to prove it. I'm anxious to hear how Mark Stietle's = PP 20B=20 performs.
 
Mike Wills

From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

Mike,

Don didn=92t report speed.  I took his = pitch and rpm=20 and figured it.  That speed at cruise is what he would get with no = slippage=20 or =93lift=94 from the prop.  Most of the folks with the Catto are = actually=20 getting higher speeds than would be calculated which indicates that the = prop is=20 producing =93lift=94, not slippage. 

 

But his engine rpm with that big prop are = higher than=20 any I have seen.  With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower.  If you = aint=20 making the rpm, you aint making the horsepower.  It doesn=92t seem = to matter=20 what you have done to the engine=85ported, PP, turbo, = supercharger.  If you=20 look at the dyno charts that are all over the web, you will see that = torque is=20 pretty flat after about 4K, about 150 ft lbs.  The horsepower is = around 150=20 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K.  You can get more = horsepower than=20 that, but only if you scream it up to 8K  or 8.5K.  All the = charts I=20 have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at all rpms.  The=20 difference in total horsepower is always a higher max=20 rpm.

 

We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 = and make 200=20 horsepower=85it aint happening!  Not with the=20 rotary.

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 = 1:17=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = Planning=20

Bill,

 

I went back and looked = at Don's=20 previous post. Saw reference to climb performance, RPMs, and temps, but = no speed=20 numbers. Has he previously reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post = from him=20 that I saw with any speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If = he's over=20 200 now, wow those are good numbers!

 

Mike=20 Wills

 

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning =

 

Those are the best numbers I have seen with = anyone with=20 a Renesis so far.  In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good = on any=20 13B.  Don is getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing = at over=20 1400 fpm with it.  The only way he is going to do better is either = with an=20 electric CS prop and/or turbo.  If he shaves the prop off to say, = 74=94, he=20 will get a couple hundred more rpm, but will probably lose in total=20 thrust.  Diameter is a big determiner in=20 thrust. 

 

I would like more pictures of Dons intake and=20 exhaust!

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 = 3:05=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = Planning=20

1.=20 When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought=20 that

comes to mind is that there is too much = prop. =20

 

Ditto.

 

Al=20 G

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CACC4A.164C3620--