X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com ([209.85.218.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4177016 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:43:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so1898586bwz.27 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=gKfrqT4ASJwIwQ6dWuJgiJV3QUjmZs896rRna1Kw5xA=; b=lQpks5gG8yUW/PbaSnG4Yhkru3RI6PaTiHkiABLwjS1IkhEQxaM8xbGMh6Vt90OLeP ZVgAD3+2ArcRmQBQ8D7JxZX1B/lC0UfvxianTariwiV0kLC4Gcl6lMpSbZJO4yd6jcVO RjIRhrKISsiuEy97kysiEASlT3AzVjIjFWcqE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=bjfPa7yd6j+74uALFkPFlnLitgLDp75ZLUS13QyKYPpOmkWacilOaUcWk8i1l9+YUy f391MiWxVRzieGrpdm5gg/yfmB5p/7L33ScXdbjP/+0wXz7fI64Rg6wHcRvDIO1uPQtU S1IYCfKjkTEds02e6HHICyzA2FDl7DHwx0qYM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.82.36 with SMTP id z36mr4271963bkk.88.1269434545120; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:42:25 -0500 Message-ID: <5cf132c1003240542k4dc6a00fg854350a1eb5c25ec@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Adaptor plate rivets From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dd96af20a9be04828b4307 --0016e6dd96af20a9be04828b4307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, On my damper plate the smoke traces were evident on both the front and rear. Based on that, I would tend to agree with your conclusion. Mark S. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:36 AM, David Leonard wrote= : > I tried to check my plate for smoking rivets today, but the shop head is > against the flywheel and I can't see a thing. The round heads all seem > fine. Couldn't detect any that seem loose or smoking or anything. Will > just have to keep an eye on it. > > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> Lynn, >> >> Do you have one of those Dyno sheets that starts at a lower rpm? Say >> below 4 or 5K? I mentioned the other day that if we don=92t have the r= pms we >> don=92t have the horsepower. I would like to see what the HP looks like= at >> the lower rpms. The torque is pretty flat for the rotary so we would ha= ve >> the same torque throughout the range. (at the prop times the PSRU ratio= ). >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:12 AM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Adaptor plate rivets >> >> The rotary has poor torque output. It has three built in flywheels. The >> crank and two nearly 10 pound rotors, the longer crank and three for a t= hree >> rotor. The engine cannot put a higher torque load into the adaptor plat= e >> than it can manufacture, plus inertial loading peaks. Minimal for a two = or >> three rotor, profound for a single rotor. >> >> >> >> Every clutch pack I have disassembled so far has those radial paths mark= ed >> out in oily filth. It has never indicated a failing rivet. It is a glimp= se >> into the world of crankcase breathing gasses showing up everywhere near = any >> engine running at high power settings. Even real 1929 designs from Lycom= ing >> and Continental. >> >> >> >> The disc is one element from a Tesla turbine, made more effective by the >> rivet heads and bolt heads and such. So, it produces a hurricane force w= ind >> on both sides of the disc that circulates in a kind of a donut shape. Di= rt >> and dust from the ground, even safety wire clippings will be picked up b= y >> this wind, and in some cases will be expelled at such a velocity that ov= er >> time, the inside of any surface exposed to the disc will become roughene= d >> like sand paper. >> >> >> >> So, a supply of oil and wire clippings are provided by you, the dust and >> filth by everyone else, the centrifugal flow provide the radial markings= . >> >> >> >> Shifting a dog ring transmission without the clutch produces higher >> inertial loadings than anything you will find in this adaptor plate. Clu= tch >> centers are riveted as well but only on a 3" circle. Never had a loose o= ne >> since 1980. >> >> >> >> Crankcase gasses contain unburnt fuel, (why the oil supply seems to >> increase with time) oil vapor, and a mixture of water and sulphur compou= nds >> that condense as sulfuric acid. >> >> >> >> This stuff is explosive and needs to be delt with. Same for piston >> engines. Never weld or grind anything near an open breather tube catch t= ank >> or oil separator. The pitiful 1/8" tube stuck into the oil filler tube i= n >> the stock Mazda engine is fine for the street, so long as long runs at h= igh >> power are not used. So probably you want a bigger breather tube to an oi= l >> separator, if you like, and then to a catch tank to keep this crap off = of >> the floor or ramp. Or, some can be piped to the intake manifold as in th= e >> street car. >> >> >> >> This re breathing of waste products does no damage (OK very little damag= e) >> and requires no nasty hose hanging out the bottom of the cowl. >> >> >> >> I would check each rivet head for loose and clean off the disc and move >> on. >> >> >> >> But I could be completely wrong.......... >> >> >> >> Lynn E. Hanover >> > > > > --0016e6dd96af20a9be04828b4307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,
=A0
On my damper plate the smoke traces were evident on both the front and= rear.=A0 Based on that, I would tend to agree with your conclusion.=A0
=A0
Mark S.

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:36 AM, David Leonard = <wdleonard@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I tried to check my plate for sm= oking rivets today, but the shop head is against the flywheel and I can'= ;t see a thing.=A0 The round heads all seem fine.=A0 Couldn't detect an= y that seem loose or smoking or anything.=A0 Will just have to keep an eye = on it.=20



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6= N4VY
http:/= /N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Bradburry = <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Lynn,

Do you have one of those Dyno sheets that starts at a= lower rpm?=A0 Say below 4 or 5K?=A0=A0 I mentioned the other day that if w= e don=92t have the rpms we don=92t have the horsepower.=A0 I would like to = see what the HP looks like at the lower rpms.=A0 The torque is pretty flat = for the rotary so we would have the same torque throughout the range.=A0 (a= t the prop times the PSRU ratio).

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ma= ilto:flyro= tary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2= 010 9:12 AM=20


To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Adaptor plate rivets=20

The rotary has poor torque output. It has three built= in flywheels. The crank and two nearly 10 pound rotors, the longer crank a= nd three for a three rotor. =A0The engine cannot put a higher torque load i= nto the adaptor plate than it can manufacture, plus inertial loading peaks.= Minimal for a two or three rotor, profound for a single rotor.

=A0

Every clutch pack I have disassembled so far has thos= e radial paths marked out in oily filth. It has never indicated a failing r= ivet. It is a glimpse into the world of crankcase breathing gasses showing = up everywhere near any engine running at high power settings. Even real 192= 9 designs from Lycoming and Continental.

=A0

The disc is one element from a Tesla turbine, made mo= re effective by the rivet heads and bolt heads and such. So, it produces a = hurricane force wind on both sides of the disc that circulates in a kind of= a donut shape. Dirt and dust from the ground, even safety wire clippings w= ill be picked up by this wind, and in some cases will be expelled at such a= velocity that over time, the inside of any surface exposed to the disc wil= l become roughened like sand paper.

=A0

So, a supply of oil and wire clippings are provided b= y you, the dust and filth by everyone else, the centrifugal flow provide th= e radial markings.

=A0

Shifting a dog ring transmission without the clutch p= roduces higher inertial loadings than anything you will find in this adapto= r plate. Clutch centers are riveted as well but only on a 3" circle. N= ever had a loose one since 1980.

=A0

Crankcase gasses contain unburnt fuel,=A0(why the oil= supply seems to increase with time) oil vapor, and a mixture of water and = sulphur compounds that condense as sulfuric acid.

=A0

This stuff is explosive and needs to be delt with. Sa= me for piston engines. Never weld or grind anything near an open breather t= ube catch tank or oil separator. The pitiful 1/8" tube stuck into the = oil filler tube in the stock Mazda engine is fine for the street, so long a= s long runs at high power are not used. So probably you want a bigger breat= her tube to an oil separator, if you=A0 like, and then to a catch tank to k= eep this crap off of the floor or ramp. Or, some can be piped to the intake= manifold as in the street car.=A0

=A0

This re breathing of waste products does no damage (O= K very little damage) and requires no nasty hose hanging out the bottom of = the cowl.=A0

=A0

I would check each rivet head for loose and clean off= the disc and move on.

=A0

But I could be completely wrong..........

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover=A0

<= /div>




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