X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4173449 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:44:12 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30045B5DD1FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:43:37 +0000 From: Chris Barber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30045B5DD1@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) byFCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) with mapi; Sun, 21 Mar2010 03:43:42 -0500 References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Fw: [FlyRotary] Thread-Index: AQHKyMStTE6yD0kvm0GV1RkgTVczjJH8DolT Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Fw: [FlyRotary] To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Modus-SURBL: =OK X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30045B5DD1FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do tend to agree that low boost will be a good idea. Also, a blow off va= lve (bov) before the throttle body to ensure that you do not overboost...th= at is, if I understand correctly a nice belt and suspender addition. A wea= ker spring in the wastegate should allow much more pressure to escape. I a= m leaning towards the "Precision" 46mm wastegate. It seems it is derived/c= opied/cloned from the Tial but is a couple hundred buck cheaper at just ove= r $300. The car forums are all over the place on the two...lots of loyalty= to the Tial, but they do not knock the Precision, just wonder if the intel= lectual property may have been...uh, borrowed from Tial. That being said, = Tial apparently "borrowed" design ideas from Garret and/or Turbonetics abou= t ten years ago. Who knows???? Mr. Slade, I do have a couple of questions for you. I want to pull the trigger on the= Turbonetics trubo pretty soon. My welder returned my manifold today all w= elded up except for the wastegate flange. I gotta wait until I get the was= tegate for that flange. BTW, the manifold looks pretty nice. I hope I lai= d it out well. I am likely going to purchase from AGP. Questions???? IIRC, your turbo is= the "wet housing". I assume this means that is has some sort of ports tha= t allow coolant to flow through the turbo. Am I correct in this assumption= ? How difficult was this to plumb in? I again assume that this is to prov= ide additional cooling. Correct? Second, I believe your compression trim is the Super 50 (2.122/3.200), bu= t what is your "Turbine Wheel"....F1-62 or 65 or 68? Here is the link to the order page and these are the drop down questions fr= om the site, thus my curiosities. http://www.agpturbo.com/product.php?prod= uctid=3D16140&cat=3D252&page=3D1 Thanks John.....and all others who choose to chime in. THIS IS the time to= chime in guys and help prevent me from being my own worse enemy....the but= t you save may be MINE!!!!!!! All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = George Lendich [lendich@aanet.com.au] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: [FlyRotary] Al/ Chris, I'm certainly no expert on Turbo, nor are some who purport to be experts. T= here are those who are genuinely very knowledgeable in car turbo, but for a= ircraft use it's another matter entirely. From discussions on here and other sites, it would appear to me that Turbos= fail because of the high heat at high rpm over extended periods and the ov= erspinning in thin air at altitudes. All that sounds fair and reasonable to= me. Some builders have overcome these problems by trimming internal blades and = making the waste gate as big as possible - in other words making the intern= als so that the exhaust has more room to escape, placing less stress on the= turbo. I notice that some car applications have remote turbo allowing the exhaust = gasses to slow and cool before entering the turbo. For our application we d= on't need all the energy from the exhaust, so we don't need all that heat a= nd exhaust pulses hammering the turbo, as it does continuously if it's in c= lose proximity to the engine. For my application, if I need turbo, I will place the turbo remotely and on= ly bypass enough exhaust energy, by way of a 'Y' section in the exhaust pip= e, to the turbo. The bypass should be cockpit adjustable for different appl= ications requiring different energy requirements - as in the wategate.. Hope you see some merit in my thinking. George ( down under) I know you're fairly entrenched in the 13B approach, but for the sake of discussion, I'm not sure that's a valid reason. How high do you want to go? I think Tracy's been over 15k with an NA 13B. I'd be willing to bet that a Velocity with an NA 20B could get well over 18k without a problem. As I recall my analysis those many years ago; the cross over point on power= for a turbo-normalized 13B and a NA 20B is at about 13,500=92 msl. Above = that altitude the torbo 13B will do better. Of course you can boost the 13= B to more than 30=94 and get more power. Al --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30045B5DD1FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do tend to agree that low boost will be a good idea.  Also, a b= low off valve (bov) before the throttle body to ensure= that you do not overboost...that is, if I understand = correctly a nice belt and suspender addition.  A weaker spring in the wastegate should allow mu= ch more pressure to escape.  I am leaning towards the "Precision&= quot; 46mm wastegate.  = It seems it is derived/copied/cloned from the Tial but is a couple hundred buck cheaper at just over $300.  The car foru= ms are all over the place on the two...lots of loyalty to the Tial, but they do not knock the Precision, just wonder if the intel= lectual property may have been...uh, borrowed from Tial.  That being said, Tial<= a> apparently "borrowed" design ide= as from Garret and/or Turbonetics about ten years= ago.  Who knows????
 
Mr. Slade,
 
I do have a couple of questions for you.  I want to pull the trig= ger on the Turbonetics trubo pretty soon.  My welder returned my manifold today all welded up= except for the wastegate flange.  I gotta wait until I get the wastegate for that flange.  BTW, the manifold looks pretty= nice.  I hope I laid it out well.
 
I am likely going to purchase from AGP. = ; Questions????  IIRC, your turbo is the &qu= ot;wet housing".  I assume this means that is has some = sort of ports that allow coolant to flow through the turbo.  Am I corr= ect in this assumption?  How difficult was this to plumb in?  I again a= ssume that this is to provide additional cooling.  Correct?
 
Second,   I believe your compression trim is the Super 50 (2.122/= 3.200), but what is your "Turbine Wheel"....F1-62 or 65 or 68?
 
 
Thanks John.....and all others who choose to chime in.  THIS IS t= he time to chime in guys and help prevent me from being my own worse enemy.= ...the butt you save may be MINE!!!!!!!
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of George Lendich [lendich@aanet.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 2:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: [FlyRotary]

Al/ Chris,
I'm certainly no expert on Turbo, nor&= nbsp;are some who purport to be experts. There are those who are genuinely&= nbsp;very knowledgeable in car turbo, but for aircraft  use it's = another matter entirely.
 
From discussions on here and other sit= es, it would appear to me that Turbos fail because of the high heat at high= rpm over extended periods and the overspinning in thin air at altitud= es. All that sounds fair and reasonable to me.
 
Some builders have overcome these prob= lems by trimming internal blades and making the waste gate as big= as possible - in other words making the internals so that the exhaust has = more room to escape, placing less stress on the turbo.
 
I notice that some car applicatio= ns have remote turbo allowing the exhaust gasses to slow and cool before en= tering the turbo. For our application we don't need all the energy from the= exhaust, so we don't need all that heat and exhaust pulses hammering the turbo, as it does continuously if it's in close proximity to the engine.
 
For my application, if I need turbo, I= will place the turbo remotely and only bypass enough exhaust energy, = by way of a 'Y' section in the exhaust pipe, to the turbo. The bypass shoul= d be cockpit adjustable for different applications requiring different energy requirements - as in the wategate..
Hope you see some merit in my thinking= .
George ( down under)
 

I know you're fairly entrenched in the 13B approach, but fo= r the sake of

discussion, I'm not sure that's a valid reason.

How high do you want to go? I think Tracy's been over 15k with an NA

13B. I'd be willing to bet that a Velocity with an NA 20B c= ould get well

over 18k without a problem.

=  

As I r= ecall my analysis those many years ago; the cross over point on power for a= turbo-normalized 13B and a NA 20B is at about 13,500=92 msl.  Above that altitude the torbo 13B will do better.&nbs= p; Of course you can boost the 13B to more than 30=94 and get more power.

 

Al

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