X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3817487 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:45:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090818224436104.CMCM8845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:44:36 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots/box fans Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:43:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01CA2033.BDB83F30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcogRCjtcE5kps06TwitKKF/xAbBFwABevYg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090818224436104.CMCM8845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01CA2033.BDB83F30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01CA2033.BDB83F30" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01CA2033.BDB83F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, the "H" energy head factor in the equation H =3D Pi*n /(pgQ) = is inversely related to restriction. The higher "H" the more restriction.=20 =20 If we rearrange the formula and solve for flow "Q", we have flow Q =3D Pi*n/(pgH) which says (leaving other factors along) that if we reduce = the factor "H" (head factor - which in essence means reducing restriction so head "H" is lowered) then Q will increase. Ergo, to increase Q reduce H meaning reduce your restriction. Well, I think that's what it says {:>) =20 However, Jeff, I must admit my only real experience with "restrictor" plates and the rotary were the two occasions I attempted to insert the coolant thermostat back into the engine - in both instances I almost = fried my engine. The engine would get overly hot (like Pinging hot) and the thermostat never seemed to open or at least the system did not cool adequately for sure. I even drilled 1/8" holes around the rim of one = to ensure no air could be trapped based on recommendation from someone on = the list. I tried a couple of thermostats in case I had a "bad" one. No = go, and I still fly without a thermostat {:>). I know other's fly with a thermostat - but, just didn't work out for me. =20 So I decided "Free Flow" - to heck with restrictions - and have cooled = every since. Like I mentioned I can see situations were a restriction might = be called for (Lynn has mentioned it as well), but for my system I want it = free flowing (well, as much as possible). =20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:40 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots/box fans =20 But Ed, does it mathematically show that you now want to install a restrictor plate? Or are you sticking to this original statement?: The entire ideal is to transfer heat from engine to air. Holding the coolant longer in the = block (via a flow restrictor) will indeed increase the temperature and = therefore the heat content of the coolant. However, my view is the ideal is NOT = to hold the heat in the block but to promote its rapid exit from the block = to the radiator.=20 Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots/box fans =20 Here is a formula for a centrifugal pump that clearly? Shows that Tracy = and Lynn are correct =20 Energy Usage The energy usage in a pumping installation is determined by the flow required, the height lifted and the length and characteristics of the pipeline. The power required to drive a pump (Pi), is defined simply = using SI units by: by: P_i=3D \cfrac{\rho\ g\ H\ Q}{\eta} where: Pi is the input power required (W)=20 =F1 is the fluid density (kg/m3)=20 g is the gravitational constant (9.81 m/s2)=20 H is the energy Head added to the flow (m)=20 Q is the flow rate (m3/s)=20 =E7 is the efficiency of the pump plant as a decimal=20 =20 One can see that if Q the flow rate becomes zero (by blocking the exit) = then the power required to drive the pump Pi also becomes zero. So block the pump and lower the flow and the power required drops - or with the same power, the pump can spin faster. There is always some flow around the = vanes of a centrifugal pump in reality, so the power does not cause the pump = to spin to infinity rpm but it equalizes at a higher rpm than when = considerable (unblocked) flow is the condition. =20 Is this fun or what? Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 2:55 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Swirl pots/box fans =20 NO! I meant exactly what I wrote. It is admittedly counter-intuitive = but true none the less. Did you attempt to prove it to yourself with the suggested test? Only takes a few seconds :>) Tracy On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Luckey = wrote: Tracy, =20 When a box fan falls over onto its suction side, it revs up as the work = it is performing drops off to near zero.....................same idea. =20 Lynn E. Hanover __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01CA2033.BDB83F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Actually, the “H” = energy head factor in the equation=A0 H =3D Pi*n /(pgQ) is inversely related to = restriction.=A0 The higher “H” the more restriction. =

 

If we rearrange the formula and = solve for flow “Q”, we have =A0=A0flow Q =3D Pi*n/(pgH) which says = (leaving other factors along) that if we reduce the factor “H” (head factor = – which in essence means reducing restriction so head “H” is = lowered) then Q will increase.=A0 Ergo, to increase Q reduce H meaning reduce = your restriction.=A0 Well, I think that’s what it says = {:>)

 

However, Jeff, =A0I must admit my = only real experience with “restrictor” plates and the rotary were the = two occasions I attempted to insert the coolant thermostat back into the = engine – in both instances I almost fried my engine.=A0 The engine would = get overly hot (like Pinging hot)=A0 and the thermostat never seemed to open or at = least the system did not cool adequately for sure.=A0=A0=A0 I even drilled = 1/8” holes around the rim of=A0 one to ensure no air could be trapped based on recommendation from someone on the list.=A0 I tried a couple of = thermostats in case I had a “bad” one.=A0 No go, and I still fly without a thermostat {:>).=A0 I know other’s fly with a thermostat = – but, just didn’t work out for me.

 

So I decided “Free = Flow” - to heck with restrictions – and have cooled every since.=A0 Like I = mentioned I can see situations were a restriction might be called for (Lynn has mentioned it as well), but = for my system I want it free flowing (well, as much as = possible).

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 4:40 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Swirl pots/box fans

 

But Ed, = does it mathematically show that you now want to install a restrictor = plate?

Or are you = sticking to this original statement?: The entire ideal = is to transfer heat from engine to air.  Holding the coolant longer in = the block (via a flow restrictor) will indeed increase the temperature and = therefore the heat content of the coolant.  However, my view is the ideal is NOT = to hold the heat in the block but to promote its rapid exit from the block to = the radiator. 

Jeff

 <= /o:p>

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 3:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Swirl pots/box fans

 

Here is a formula for a centrifugal = pump that clearly? Shows that Tracy and Lynn are = correct

 

Energy = Usage

The energy usage in a pumping installation is determined by the flow = required, the height lifted and the length and characteristics of the pipeline. The = power required to drive a pump (Pi<= /i>), is defined simply using SI units by: = by:

3D"P_i=3D

where:

Pi is the = input power required (W)

=F1 is the fluid density (kg/m3) =

g is the gravitational = constant (9.81 m/s2)

H is the energy Head = added to the flow (m)

Q is the flow rate = (m3/s)

=E7 is the efficiency of the pump plant as a decimal =

 

One can see that if Q the flow rate becomes zero (by blocking the exit) then the power required to drive the = pump Pi also becomes zero.  So block the pump and lower the flow and the = power required drops – or with the same power, the pump can spin = faster.  There is always some flow around the vanes of a centrifugal pump in = reality, so the power does not cause the pump to spin to infinity rpm but it = equalizes at a higher rpm than when considerable (unblocked) flow is the = condition.

 

Is this fun or = what?

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 2:55 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Swirl pots/box fans

 

NO!  I = meant exactly what I wrote.  It is admittedly counter-intuitive but true none the less.  Did you attempt to prove it to yourself with the suggested test?   Only takes a few seconds :>)

Tracy

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net> wrote:

Tracy,

 

When a box fan falls over onto its suction side, it revs up as = the work it is performing drops off to near zero.....................same = idea.

 

Lynn E. Hanover



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of = virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message = was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01CA2033.BDB83F30-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01CA2033.BDB83F30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhdwAvAHcAACH/C01TT0ZGSUNFOS4wGAAAAAxtc09QTVNPRkZJQ0U5LjAQAiDF3gAsAAAA AHcALwCE////AAAAYmJiIiIiDAwMQEBAtra2ioqK5ubmMDAwBAQEnp6ezMzMdHR0FhYWUFBQAQID AQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDAQIDBP8QyEmrvTjrza0Y gVIsAFMQwVB0yyMIT4F0dG3fnBEcVaJ0iIGAYlAYcMikEiMIzCiKBIeh4FUehKV2extkKYxAY4NQ PC66I3fNtgRWlEaAsRn8LuFxe/nonzcvAgcOahk6VhM+GzpDaAGNe0iEEgl6GAN6TU8ZcgkFn58p GwlOGAc7kUgFfwAPAxkCDhMHXxoJsmCPGwq1FgWlqTZhdJS4F2ITnxwiFXKFGAFSGAqvwTYCvQRw FqfEAASWGGGIlAEcbxhy3tYdKhNhJBdNEwhzG3KbEgTVGgTSFWUgseuASoIrTrUO3LG1UEI9genu LGigZwCrgTmQATBAIF8FKg7//S37J+HUswwqGPBA0KASxhrYFrx44NFCgwcUHYTzBULbjAUFFKSA mM4TjAFP1r28tM1GvZMDTTgkJ+FDAG2fBgyAyqYgkFkNX3KkVHOjVwAmU+koe+GBOQAICMRbWiKE GSbAJkRLdYAfhwOVBBTgihFE0wpe3Pily3gNMwoLdDWevCUPYmOUMyNRR68A0g0FHIgeTdrBYs0D SQXqMxe16xrUDPV6TTsXUTB7Aujezbu379/Agwsf/nuCM1Wlk5+u3UYRkwSEmaOOfaEBggRUpaP2 fLWAUrgAwmof3+ww+fMACB1gi752AUHt48ufT7/++QMCpBxo8IG9/ZdjREHMRir/ZXYAHV55UiBl P72lz04L0nWQQ/ZEOJkDkChkIWUBFJIASRu+FBkUEIbITkvvVGjiZA2It+JSH75ImQIlyshOGf5p EQEAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01CA2033.BDB83F30--