X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com ([209.85.221.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3817268 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:39:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.182; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so2852650qyk.7 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=RugBtP26bgvLu5xi0KzplgnMcnNS05gNb6NufbU9eF0=; b=vakI0elcTHo5JsyfmwS3eu8KWc41iJUDQJ/mJPbai6DdJJurgmhYFn3yHqFZVLq3Uq s/Egsq9pe4k7FuxCHDjKWinkCymSDcPuU8lrNzqTvXxMFH5QS9SgIoSRsVG2iAgjPaM7 uUKbMcJG8RdzlBHubvhUh54hxgkm5zM7otk+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=CfBHDcfQT0zm4TL5XZA33K4hYdLhoQyFi0D++HCvqfmubI93aNdklp4L9agpePFR82 ExpKYk2Uw0bOPeBgToQMfK09FQ+VzD6Lz3ms6P1hcfGJVeKoq+Dg1N5tq3mgB5r1xwlE rkIbQLDIMKmg+MupfdwAi4GLaQ82j5xkQkMko= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.65.15 with SMTP id g15mr5867913qai.325.1250624356239; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:39:16 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e28271a4d9a03912 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0908181239o59653e4djfa1eef198cdfe099@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f93d682804d7704716fac70 --00c09f93d682804d7704716fac70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see the problem. I was replying to a previous message which implied that load when up with restricted flow (the myth). Tracy On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Tracy, > > > > I=92m with you on the concept =96 (restrict the flow on a centrifugal pum= p and > the load on the motor goes down). > > > > I=92m merely questioning the way it was stated. I=92m suggesting that you > inadvertently stated the converse in your =93myth=94 statement. > > > > Is that completely clear-as-mud? Or am I mis-reading? > > > > Now my brain hurts ;) > > > > -Jeff > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:54 > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots > > > > NO! I meant exactly what I wrote. It is admittedly counter-intuitive bu= t > true none the less. Did you attempt to prove it to yourself with the > suggested test? Only takes a few seconds :>) > > Tracy > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote= : > > Tracy, > > > > > > Did you mean to say? > > Myth - Back pressure on a centrifugal pump INCREASES the amount of power > absorbed by the pump > > > > Reality - Back pressure on a centrifugal pump REDUCES the amount of power > absorbed by the pump > > > > > > Thanks for the clarification.. > > > > - Mr. Nitpicker > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bryan Winberry > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2009 06:15 > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots > > > > Wow, that=92s a good one for a bar bet. I never thought of that. > > Bryan > > Keep em coming > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:00 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Swirl pots > > > > Another Myth. Back pressure on a centrifugal pump REDUCES the amount of > power absorbed by the pump. > > An empirical test to prove it to yourself. Turn on your shop-vac (a > centrifugal pump). Restrict the airflow by blocking either the output o= r > the input. Hear the RPM increase? That's because the load went DOWN, no= t > UP. > > Tracy (sacred cow slaughtering mode) > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Bill Bradburry > wrote: > > Lynn, > > What is the purpose of the restrictor in the line from the water pump? I= s > the air supposed to come out of solution when the pressure drops on the b= ack > side? Looks like you would be adding an unnecessary load on the engine t= o > add the pressure in the system??? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 9:50 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Swirl pots > > I need to design a swirl pot for my renesis/rv6a installation. is there = an > accepted volume I need to work with? it's my understanding that the wate= r > pump outlet goes thru the swirl pot and then on to the radiator input, an= d > that the pot should be close to the pump. would it make sense to look in= to > the pot welded to the pump, if possible? are pots always cylindrical? > kevin > > > > > > Here is the system I have used on my race cars since 1975. I then found i= t > on Mazda RX-2s and 3s. > > > > My make up tank is actually off of an RX-2. > > > > The swirl pot is a replica of a device used in commercial heating systems > using hot water to heat big buildings, called a Rolairtrol by Bell and > Gossett. Used to remove air from the hot water circuits. > > > > Mine are made from expended propane bottles. Smal aluminum fire > extinguishers work as well. > > > > It is very difficult to remove the air from the rotary engine, and I have > the engines out of the car every two or three weekends, so it turned into= a > giant pain with each refilling of the coolant system. The inlet flow is = in > the center and on a tangent so as to spin the coolant. Any air pops to th= e > top of the can and as pressure goes up with temperature the air is forced > into the bottom of the make up tank. When coolant temps drop a bit the > pressure in the make up tank can force only coolant back into the system,= no > air. After only one heat cycle you will need to add coolant to the make u= p > tank. The overflow tank is required for racing, but never gets any coolan= t > in it. > > > > This is not my idea. (The make up tank) It was on every Mazda imported to > the US. > > > > The cap on the swirl pot is a seal only used to fill the system. The > pressure requlating cap is on the top of the make up tank. The swirl pot > could have only a fitting for the line to the make up tank. > > The system can be filled by removing one hose from the pot. > > > > The make up pot need not be higher than anything else. Mine is on the > passenger side floor. Use small diameter hose in the run to the make up > tank. Light, cheap, works every time. > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > --00c09f93d682804d7704716fac70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see the problem.=A0 I was replying to a previous message which implied th= at load when up with restricted flow (the myth).

Tracy

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net> wrote:

Tracy,

=A0

I=92m with you on the concept =96 = (restrict the flow on a centrifugal pump and the load on the motor goes down).=A0

=A0

I=92m merely questioning the way i= t was stated. I=92m suggesting that you inadvertently stated the converse in your =93myth=94 statement.

=A0

Is that completely clear-as-mud? O= r am I mis-reading?

=A0

Now my brain hurts ;)

=A0

-Jeff

=A0

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 10:54
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: S= wirl pots

=A0

NO!=A0 I meant exactly what I wrote.=A0 It is admittedly counter-intuitive but true none the less.=A0 Did you attempt to prove it to yourself with the suggested test?=A0=A0 Only takes a few seconds :>)

Tracy

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net> wrote:

Tracy,

=A0

=A0

Did you mean to say?=

Myth - Back pressure= on a centrifugal pump INCREASES the amount of power absorbed by the pump

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0

Reality - Back pressure on a centrifugal pump REDUCES the amount of power absorbed by the pump

=A0

=A0

Thanks for the clarification..

=A0

- Mr. Nitpicker

=A0

=A0

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberr= y
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 06:15
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: S= wirl pots

=A0

Wow, that=92s a good one for a bar= bet. =A0I never thought of that.

Bryan

Keep em coming

=A0

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Tuesday, August 18, = 2009 9:00 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: S= wirl pots

=A0

Another Myth.=A0 Back pressure on a centr= ifugal pump REDUCES the amount of power absorbed by the pump.=A0

An empirical test to prove it to yourself.=A0 Turn on your shop-vac (a centrifugal pump).=A0=A0 Restrict the airflow by blocking either the output or the input.=A0 Hear the RPM increase?=A0 That's because the lo= ad went DOWN, not UP.

Tracy=A0 (sacred cow slaughtering mode)

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Lynn,

What is the purpose of the restrictor in the line from the water pump?=A0 Is the ai= r supposed to come out of solution when the pressure drops on the back side?=A0 Looks like you would be adding an unnecessary load on the engine t= o add the pressure=A0 in the system???

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover<= br> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2= 009 9:50 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Swirl= pots

I need to design a swirl pot for m= y renesis/rv6a installation.=A0 is there an accepted volume I need to work with?=A0 it'= ;s my understanding that the water pump outlet goes thru the swirl pot and the= n on to the radiator input, and that the pot should be close to the pump.=A0 wou= ld it make sense to look into the pot welded to the pump, if possible?=A0 are pots always cylindrical?=A0=A0=A0 kevin

=A0

=A0

Here is the system I have used on = my race cars since 1975. I then found it on Mazda RX-2s and 3s.

=A0

My make up tank is actually off of= an RX-2.

=A0

The swirl pot is a replica of a de= vice used in commercial heating systems using hot water to heat big buildings, called a Rolairtrol = by Bell and Gossett. Used to remove air from the hot water circuits.

=A0

Mine are made from expended propan= e bottles. Smal aluminum fire extinguishers work as well.

=A0

It is very difficult to remove the= air from the rotary engine, and I have the engines out of the car every two or three weekends, so it tu= rned into a giant pain with each refilling of the coolant system.=A0 The inlet flow is in the center and on a tangent so as to spin the coolant. Any air p= ops to the top of the can and as pressure goes up with temperature the air is forced into the bottom of the make up tank. When coolant temps drop a bit t= he pressure in the make up tank can force only coolant back into the system, n= o air. After only one heat cycle you will need to add coolant to the make up tank. The overflow tank is required for racing, but never=A0gets any coolan= t in it.=A0=A0

=A0

This is not my idea. (The make up = tank) It was on every Mazda imported to the US.

=A0

The cap on the swirl pot is a seal= only used to fill the system. The pressure requlating cap is on the top of the make up tank. The swirl pot could have only a fitting for the line to the make up tank.

The system can be filled by removi= ng one hose from the pot.=A0

=A0

The make up pot need not be higher= than anything else. Mine is on the passenger side floor. Use small diameter hose in the run to the make= up tank. Light, cheap, works every time.

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover=A0

=A0

=A0


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