X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.113] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with SMTP id 3638217 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 May 2009 23:07:01 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.113; envelope-from=delta11xd@att.net Received: (qmail 95886 invoked by uid 60001); 11 May 2009 03:06:26 -0000 Message-ID: <436576.93758.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QAGg_RwVM1n2JOWeIqLQDvdzU9KLUv7GCTdPjf7Z3xh3.lCQETp5J_BHWX2znPDW7ciQtPm9YSvFg35ZQw6V1dYpNbOl4G0nd8Am4EBjnjS2yduf7zf9uiaKGabNhglmy6hP3neWvXzH2ILbBToy5bNIH.UcGTQwXVo_UYUvWlGDEcR9JErqCr7xBTgKhy1XbQHrhbwRLfnlwyQRZ06lTswiy8NhYOZxfa7jd5XeaKuXPO.lfiZ4qD3FjSCPQ9pvMxREpa98nRbhUeA47M_nONrUQeRTSL4G4MlNdGCIr5MxvNhz_4KEM9DVyJ64J1yMqA-- Received: from [76.237.111.116] by web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 20:06:25 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: James Maher Reply-To: delta11xd@att.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Initial Tuning - Today's Cornfusing Efforts To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1853336623-1242011185=:93758" --0-1853336623-1242011185=:93758 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, You seem to be making some progress. Just one hint for tuning the Geo. When first starting the engine cold the mixture knob may have to be set ric= her for idle then once the engine warms up. Don't try to tune any of the settings until the engine is at operating temp= erature. The mixture settings will be leaner when the engine is hot than when cold. So start with the knob rich and as the engine warms turn it towards the mid= dle. Once the engine is=A0up to temp be sure that the mixture knob is centered w= hen programming the settings. On the Metro the Geo computer increases the idle to 1500 when cold by addin= g bleed air into the intake with the=A0idle speed valve. As the engine warms the idle is reduced to 850 RPM where it is quite smooth= . You should have no problem idling at 850 as well. =A0 Jim --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Mike Fontenot wrote= : From: Mike Fontenot Subject: [FlyRotary] Initial Tuning - Today's Cornfusing Efforts To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 10:43 PM Tracy and all, I saw your note about Mode 9 auto-tune, I will re-read the manual.=20 Today I was able to tie her down and run the engine up to the MAP value to = 22. It was right around 4700 RPM. Let me say that things were just a bit ov= erwhelming, while sitting in the cockpit, engine roaring behind me, and the= EM2 doing what I thought was 'odd' stuff. Anyway, feedback and advice is a= ppreciated. I'm not sure I really made much progress today. Also, it looks = like my alternator is not turning on. I was expecting to see increased volt= age at these higher RPMs (I've never taken the engine to this RPM before), = but that did not happen. Happily the batteries ran the system for a good 45= minutes, but I could see the voltage dropping, to a low point of around 11= .8 volts at the end of the day. That is a problem I had not anticipated, al= l my electrical checks to this point were good. Hmmmm. I did use the EM2 to view the Injector setting before starting to change Mo= de 3, it was 230.=20 I did have printed documents for tuning each mode I was planning on trying = today. But with the wild swings of the Mixture indicator it left me confuse= d. I have a feeling others might have experienced something like this when = first trying to tune the EC2, it was frustrating. STEP 1 - Tune Mode 3 - I started trying to tune Mode 3. I had no problems g= etting the MAP up to 22, I was able to use the Mixture Knob to keep the eng= ine running smoothly. And clearly, if I leaned the mixture the MAP/RPM decr= eased. While increasing Mixture did the opposite. I could see changes in th= e EM2 Mixture Indicator (more shortly). I started trying to balance the Mode 3 values by using the Program Knob/Sto= re, Mixture Knob, and watching the EM2 mixture indicator. First, on the EM2 (normal view) I could see the Mixture Indicator but to th= e right of it were four more bars. What the heck are those?? I don't see an= ything in the manuals mentioning these other four bars. And it even seems l= ike they came and went. Weird. While at MAP 22, if I increased the Mixture Knob just slightly past 1200, l= ike to 1230, the Mixture Indicator would jump to 2 bars.=20 Here is an example of what I would do, and what would happen: MAP at 22, Mixture Knob at 0200, engine running smoothly. I would put the P= rogram Knob at 0300 and press the Store button. Doing this the EM2 Mixture = Indicator would jump to 2 bars right away. Engine would continue to run.=A0= Then if I reduced the Mixture Knob to 1200 the EM2 Mixture Indicator would= drop=A0 to about 30%. The engine would clearly drop in RPM and MAP as well= . Moving Mixture Knob clockwise would speed it up and increase output. Over= all the engine ran smoothly at this RPM, I'm just not sure if I am at 1 bar= mixture. This big movement would happen if I was using the Program Knob to increase = or decrease the Injector setting. So these big jumps in the Mixture Indicat= or made it difficult for me to narrow in on values. Same thing for moving M= ixture in the other direction.=20 Any ideas what could be causing such large changes for tiny adjustment? I d= id the best I could in getting the Mixture Indicator at 1 bar, and I looked= in EM2 Table View for the Injector Flow rate, it read 153.=20 So as I reduced the throttle down to the low end RPM the engine ran rough, = and the only way to keep it somewhat smooth was to move the Mixture Knob to= 0500. I felt like the engine would quit if I throttled very low. Surgy and= sort of rough. Step 2 - Tune Mode 2 - Again the twitchy Mixture Indicator made it difficul= t for me to make precise changes. The engine was definitely running rougher= now at this low RPM range. And the Mode 2 instructions are confusing to me= especially this first time out, sort of a reverse logic (If you make large= mixture rich movements then decrease injector dynamic range). I know it so= unds logical sitting here reading it on the internets, it was confusing in = the cockpit.=20 Since I was holding the Mixture Knob to 0500 (rich) I decreased the Mode 2 = value. Again, the Mixture Indicator would jump down quickly. Engine still r= an rough. I really felt like I was all over the place in this Mode 2. So I = don't feel confident in the settings I have made so far. I shut the engine down, and restarted a couple of times, just to convince m= yself it would start again after these adjustment. It did, but ran really r= ough and weak at lowest MAP/RPM. Just a slight increase in the RPM seemed t= o quickly smooth things out. I am really sort of wondering if the Mode 3 In= jector flow got adjusted too low. That was it, I was fried. Overall running time was about 50 minutes. Feedba= ck, advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks, --=20 Mike =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mike Fontenot Apex Consulting & Services LLC Lakewood, Colorado 303 / 731-6645 mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --0-1853336623-1242011185=:93758 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
You seem to be making some progress.
Just one hint for tuning the Geo.
When first starting the engine cold the mixture knob may have to be se= t richer
for idle then once the engine warms up.
Don't try to tune any of the settings until the engine is at operating= temperature.
The mixture settings will be leaner when the engine is hot than when c= old.
So start with the knob rich and as the engine warms turn it towards th= e middle.
Once the engine is up to temp be sure that the mixture knob is ce= ntered when programming the settings.
On the Metro the Geo computer increases the idle to 1500 when cold by = adding bleed air
into the intake with the idle speed valve.
As the engine warms the idle is reduced to 850 RPM where it is quite s= mooth.
You should have no problem idling at 850 as well.
 
Jim

--- On Sun, 5/10/09, Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexcons= ultingservices.com> wrote:
From: Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.= com>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Initial Tuning - Today's Cornfusing Efforts=
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 10:43 PM

Tracy and all,

I saw your note about Mode 9 a= uto-tune, I will re-read the manual.

Today I was able to tie her do= wn and run the engine up to the MAP value to 22. It was right around 4700 R= PM. Let me say that things were just a bit overwhelming, while sitting in t= he cockpit, engine roaring behind me, and the EM2 doing what I thought was = 'odd' stuff. Anyway, feedback and advice is appreciated. I'm not sure I rea= lly made much progress today. Also, it looks like my alternator is not turn= ing on. I was expecting to see increased voltage at these higher RPMs (I've= never taken the engine to this RPM before), but that did not happen. Happi= ly the batteries ran the system for a good 45 minutes, but I could see the = voltage dropping, to a low point of around 11.8 volts at the end of the day= . That is a problem I had not anticipated, all my electrical checks to this= point were good. Hmmmm.

I did use the EM2 to view the Injector setting before starting to change Mode 3, it was 230.

I did have p= rinted documents for tuning each mode I was planning on trying today. But w= ith the wild swings of the Mixture indicator it left me confused. I have a = feeling others might have experienced something like this when first trying= to tune the EC2, it was frustrating.

STEP 1 - Tune Mode 3 - I start= ed trying to tune Mode 3. I had no problems getting the MAP up to 22, I was= able to use the Mixture Knob to keep the engine running smoothly. And clea= rly, if I leaned the mixture the MAP/RPM decreased. While increasing Mixtur= e did the opposite. I could see changes in the EM2 Mixture Indicator (more = shortly).

I started trying to balance the Mode 3 values by using the= Program Knob/Store, Mixture Knob, and watching the EM2 mixture indicator.<= BR>First, on the EM2 (normal view) I could see the Mixture Indicator but to= the right of it were four more bars. What the heck are those?? I don't see anything in the manuals mentioning these other four bars. And it= even seems like they came and went. Weird.

While at MAP 22, if I in= creased the Mixture Knob just slightly past 1200, like to 1230, the Mixture= Indicator would jump to 2 bars.
Here is an example of what I would do,= and what would happen:

MAP at 22, Mixture Knob at 0200, engine runn= ing smoothly. I would put the Program Knob at 0300 and press the Store butt= on. Doing this the EM2 Mixture Indicator would jump to 2 bars right away. E= ngine would continue to run.  Then if I reduced the Mixture Knob to 12= 00 the EM2 Mixture Indicator would drop  to about 30%. The engine woul= d clearly drop in RPM and MAP as well. Moving Mixture Knob clockwise would = speed it up and increase output. Overall the engine ran smoothly at this RP= M, I'm just not sure if I am at 1 bar mixture.

This big movement wou= ld happen if I was using the Program Knob to increase or decrease the Injector setting. So these big jumps in the Mixture Indicator made it = difficult for me to narrow in on values. Same thing for moving Mixture in t= he other direction.

Any ideas what could be causing such large chan= ges for tiny adjustment? I did the best I could in getting the Mixture Indi= cator at 1 bar, and I looked in EM2 Table View for the Injector Flow rate, = it read 153.

So as I reduced the throttle down to the low end RPM t= he engine ran rough, and the only way to keep it somewhat smooth was to mov= e the Mixture Knob to 0500. I felt like the engine would quit if I throttle= d very low. Surgy and sort of rough.

Step 2 - Tune Mode 2 - Again th= e twitchy Mixture Indicator made it difficult for me to make precise change= s. The engine was definitely running rougher now at this low RPM range. And= the Mode 2 instructions are confusing to me especially this first time out= , sort of a reverse logic (If you make large mixture rich movements then decrease injector dynamic range). I know it sounds logical sitting he= re reading it on the internets, it was confusing in the cockpit.

Si= nce I was holding the Mixture Knob to 0500 (rich) I decreased the Mode 2 va= lue. Again, the Mixture Indicator would jump down quickly. Engine still ran= rough. I really felt like I was all over the place in this Mode 2. So I do= n't feel confident in the settings I have made so far.

I shut the en= gine down, and restarted a couple of times, just to convince myself it woul= d start again after these adjustment. It did, but ran really rough and weak= at lowest MAP/RPM. Just a slight increase in the RPM seemed to quickly smo= oth things out. I am really sort of wondering if the Mode 3 Injector flow g= ot adjusted too low.

That was it, I was fried. Overall running time = was about 50 minutes. Feedback, advice and suggestions are greatly apprecia= ted.

Thanks,

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting= & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT ape= xconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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