X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3556423 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:48:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.64; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WcF01b00B0b6N64A7foBvL; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:48:11 +0000 Received: from sz0070.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.26.124]) by OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WfoA1b00X2gfN2s8PfoA5f; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:48:11 +0000 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:48:10 +0000 (UTC) From: wschertz@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1439940759.76121237823290821.JavaMail.root@sz0070a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Problem found MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3728_1974435751.1237823290820" X-Originating-IP: [146.139.77.118] X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.11_GA_2730.RHEL5_64 (ZimbraWebClient - IE7 (Win)/5.0.11_GA_2730.RHEL5_64) ------=_Part_3728_1974435751.1237823290820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A thought occurred to me -- are you using the teflon encapsulated silicon_r= ubber=C2=A0o-rings? There have been instances of them being too big and bre= aking out the walls of the coolant passage as shown in your photo -- If you= look at the gap, does it appear to be a fresh break or just a missing port= ion of the wall, if just a missing portion, it should have a smooth appeara= nce from the casting operation, if it is a fresh break, it might be because= of the o-ring expanding and causing pressure that breaks out the cast iron= .=20 One more thing to check.=20 Bill Schertz=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Steitle" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:41:08 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Problem found=20 Chris,=20 With the luck you've been having, I can't help but wonder if you maybe wrot= e a speeding ticket to the Pope or something.=C2=A0 ;-)=C2=A0 I really hope= that Mazdatrix stands behind their parts and sends you a new housing.=C2= =A0=20 Years ago I bought a junkyard 13B engine, mainly for educational purposes.= =C2=A0=C2=A0Upon disassembly,=C2=A0I quickly spotted the reason for it bein= g in the junkyard.=C2=A0 It=C2=A0turned out to have a cracked coolant passa= ge, just like your center housing.=C2=A0 I tried to braze weld it, just to = see if I could do it,=C2=A0and it appeared to work.=C2=A0 I never put the e= ngine back together and ran it, so I don't know if it would hold up or not.= =C2=A0 Don't get the idea that I would=C2=A0fly with that housing, because = I wouldn't think of it.=C2=A0 But as a last resort,=C2=A0I think it might b= e worth a try in a street application.=C2=A0=20 When ordering parts, keep in mind that Bob Mears (Mears Mazda) has offered = us rotary-engine aviators=C2=A0a very generous discount on rotary engine=C2= =A0parts.=C2=A0 Bob is building a Marine Spitfire with a 3-rotor.=C2=A0 His= parts manager is Ronnie Kenley (1-800-692-4497).=C2=A0 If you have to bite= the bullet and buy another housing,=C2=A0you may want to=C2=A0call Ronnie.= =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 Thanks,=20 Mark=C2=A0=20 2009/3/22 < cbarber@texasattorney.net >=20 As y'all may remember, I have had some, uh, "issues" with my rotary. =C2=A0= After seemingly toasting my first rebuilt rotary from lack of knowledge and= the learning curve, I gathered my newly learned skill and bit the bullet a= nd bought new end, center and rotor housings from Mazdatrix and built what = was essentially a new 2nd gen 13b.=20 I was all excited and got it to start with little problem and had learned a= great deal about most my systems and was very confidant in the new build. = =C2=A0DOH! =C2=A0After getting everything back together it started to exhib= it some of the same symptoms of the first engine (I had discovered coolant = leaking into the rotor housing of the first engine, which had been built fr= om the parts of three 2nd gen turbo's we found as a lot on ebay), namely, t= he engine would start up fine at first, but would become very difficult to = start after the first start of the day.=20 Since I recognized the symptoms, I reluctantly pulled out a spark plug and = hand turned the prop and low and behold, coolant squirted out the spark plu= g hole. Damn-it. =C2=A0I was at a loss, so, I removed the engine from my Ve= locity and took it over to a trusted friend (who is building an RV-7a with = a Eggenfielder Soob) and engineer to get a second, and as it turned out a t= hird opinion on what was going on (my friend had a friend over who is a 30 = year veteran Audie mechanic). =C2=A0Upon inspection it seemed as if the pro= blem was that the coolant ports that feed into the stock intake had not bee= n properly sealed. =C2=A0Eureka, or so we thought, we had solved the proble= m with both the new engine and the old one. =C2=A0We thought the coolant wa= s coming into the rotor housings via the bad seal and the Mistal intake not= sealing as expected. =C2=A0What a relief......wrong.=20 Over the last couple of months, since the engine was off the plane I refine= d many of the firewall aft systems and added both a much bigger radiator an= d oil cooler. =C2=A0Really got things much more flight ready as opposed to = "proof of concept". =C2=A0The old radiator was not up to the task in Housto= n's heat, so I got one on there much closer to the size of John Slade as op= posed to Tracy's original size, that, IIRC, was marginal at best. It was fo= r me anyway.=20 So, last week I had most my systems installed and got the engine all rigged= . =C2=A0I rolled the plane out of the hangar for an attempt to start. =C2= =A0It started right up and was even admired by some neighbors, including th= e married NASA rocket scientist next door (great couple) who had just spent= $60K for a new certified engine for their Lancair Legacy. =C2=A0I was feel= ing like I was actually making progress. =C2=A0Alas, I was mistaken. =C2=A0= The engine was shut down to allow a plane to pass returning to its hangar. = =C2=A0Upon restart it was more difficult. =C2=A0I let it run a few minutes = to check cooling, which seems better (coolant doing better than oil). =C2= =A0I then shut it down again and restarted, even harder this time....lets t= ry again....even harder. =C2=A0 Hmmmmmm. =C2=A0Okay, I have seen this, no r= eason to wait. =C2=A0Let me pull the plug. =C2=A0Yep, as I hand propped the= engine, I got coolant squirting out the lower rear spark plug hole.=20 I have lost some of my patience, so I stripped most everything off the engi= ne over the last few days. =C2=A0Today I mounted the engine on the stand an= d cracked it open. =C2=A0Everything looked fine, UNTIL I got to the interme= diate/center plate. =C2=A0There was a piece of the center iron inner water = seal O-ring wall that was missing!!! (see attached photo) This is a brand n= ew housing purchased and ported by Mazdatrix last summer.....brand new. =C2= =A0On one hand I am horrified at my new plate failing after only about an h= our of running. =C2=A0On the other hand I am happy that I did not screw up = the build. =C2=A0There is no way I can grasp that I made this happen, thus = my build was solid. =C2=A0A part that does not usually fail, failed. =C2=A0= Now, I wonder what Mazdatrix's return policy is.....will it be covered unde= r warranty? =C2=A0It is a $500.00 piece purchased in the last year (kinda l= ong, but I admittedly do not have the luxury of testing every day and it on= ly has about 1-2 hours total time on it) that should not have failed. =C2= =A0I will call them tomorrow, but regret I do not have much faith in them a= ccepting responsibility. =C2=A0That being said, I know it was not anything = I did. =C2=A0I will likely purchase another plate, send them my damaged one= and hope for the best...I want to move on. =C2=A0I am sick and tired of me= ssing with it....I feel like I have been going in circles....so, so close, = but so far. =C2=A0I think I would have been flying if it were not for this = issue....however, it has allowed me to make my systems much better during t= he experience.=20 Please check out the picture and ad any thoughts you may have.=20 Thanks.=20 All the best,=20 Chris Barber=20 Houston=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html=20 ------=_Part_3728_1974435751.1237823290820 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>

A thou= ght occurred to me -- are you using the teflon encapsulated silicon_rubber&= nbsp;o-rings? There have been instances of them being too big and breaking = out the walls of the coolant passage as shown in your photo -- If you look = at the gap, does it appear to be a fresh break or just a missing portion of= the wall, if just a missing portion, it should have a smooth appearance fr= om the casting operation, if it is a fresh break, it might be because of th= e o-ring expanding and causing pressure that breaks out the cast iron.

 

One more thing to check.

Bill Schertz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Steitle" <= ;msteitle@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:41:08 AM GMT -06:00 U= S/Canada Central
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Problem found

Chris,
 
With the luck you've been having, I can't help but wonder if you maybe= wrote a speeding ticket to the Pope or something.  ;-)  I really= hope that Mazdatrix stands behind their parts and sends you a new housing.=  
 
Years ago I bought a junkyard 13B engine, mainly for educational purpo= ses.  Upon disassembly, I quickly spotted the reason for it = being in the junkyard.  It turned out to have a cracked coolant p= assage, just like your center housing.  I tried to braze weld it, just= to see if I could do it, and it appeared to work.  I never put t= he engine back together and ran it, so I don't know if it would hold up or = not.  Don't get the idea that I would fly with that housing, beca= use I wouldn't think of it.  But as a last resort, I think it mig= ht be worth a try in a street application. 
 
When ordering parts, keep in mind that Bob Mears (Mears Mazda) has off= ered us rotary-engine aviators a very generous discount on rotary engi= ne parts.  Bob is building a Marine Spitfire with a 3-rotor. = ; His parts manager is Ronnie Kenley (1-800-692-4497).  If you have to= bite the bullet and buy another housing, you may want to call Ro= nnie.  
 
Thanks,
Mark 

2009/3/22 <cbarber@texasattorney.net><= /SPAN>
As y'all may remember, I have had = some, uh, "issues" with my rotary.  After seemingly toasting my first = rebuilt rotary from lack of knowledge and the learning curve, I gathered my= newly learned skill and bit the bullet and bought new end, center and roto= r housings from Mazdatrix and built what was essentially a new 2nd gen 13b.=

I was all excited and got it to start with little problem and had l= earned a great deal about most my systems and was very confidant in the new= build.  DOH!  After getting everything back together it started = to exhibit some of the same symptoms of the first engine (I had discovered = coolant leaking into the rotor housing of the first engine, which had been = built from the parts of three 2nd gen turbo's we found as a lot on ebay), n= amely, the engine would start up fine at first, but would become very diffi= cult to start after the first start of the day.

Since I recognized t= he symptoms, I reluctantly pulled out a spark plug and hand turned the prop= and low and behold, coolant squirted out the spark plug hole. Damn-it. &nb= sp;I was at a loss, so, I removed the engine from my Velocity and took it o= ver to a trusted friend (who is building an RV-7a with a Eggenfielder Soob)= and engineer to get a second, and as it turned out a third opinion on what= was going on (my friend had a friend over who is a 30 year veteran Audie m= echanic).  Upon inspection it seemed as if the problem was that the co= olant ports that feed into the stock intake had not been properly sealed. &= nbsp;Eureka, or so we thought, we had solved the problem with both the new = engine and the old one.  We thought the coolant was coming into the ro= tor housings via the bad seal and the Mistal intake not sealing as expected= .  What a relief......wrong.

Over the last couple of months, si= nce the engine was off the plane I refined many of the firewall aft systems= and added both a much bigger radiator and oil cooler.  Really got thi= ngs much more flight ready as opposed to "proof of concept".  The old = radiator was not up to the task in Houston's heat, so I got one on there mu= ch closer to the size of John Slade as opposed to Tracy's original size, th= at, IIRC, was marginal at best. It was for me anyway.

So, last week = I had most my systems installed and got the engine all rigged.  I roll= ed the plane out of the hangar for an attempt to start.  It started ri= ght up and was even admired by some neighbors, including the married NASA r= ocket scientist next door (great couple) who had just spent $60K for a new = certified engine for their Lancair Legacy.  I was feeling like I was a= ctually making progress.  Alas, I was mistaken.  The engine was s= hut down to allow a plane to pass returning to its hangar.  Upon resta= rt it was more difficult.  I let it run a few minutes to check cooling= , which seems better (coolant doing better than oil).  I then shut it = down again and restarted, even harder this time....lets try again....even h= arder.   Hmmmmmm.  Okay, I have seen this, no reason to wait. &nb= sp;Let me pull the plug.  Yep, as I hand propped the engine, I got coo= lant squirting out the lower rear spark plug hole.

I have lost some = of my patience, so I stripped most everything off the engine over the last = few days.  Today I mounted the engine on the stand and cracked it open= .  Everything looked fine, UNTIL I got to the intermediate/center plat= e.  There was a piece of the center iron inner water seal O-ring wall = that was missing!!! (see attached photo) This is a brand new housing purcha= sed and ported by Mazdatrix last summer.....brand new.  On one hand I = am horrified at my new plate failing after only about an hour of running. &= nbsp;On the other hand I am happy that I did not screw up the build.  = There is no way I can grasp that I made this happen, thus my build was soli= d.  A part that does not usually fail, failed.  Now, I wonder wha= t Mazdatrix's return policy is.....will it be covered under warranty?  = ;It is a $500.00 piece purchased in the last year (kinda long, but I admitt= edly do not have the luxury of testing every day and it only has about 1-2 = hours total time on it) that should not have failed.  I will call them= tomorrow, but regret I do not have much faith in them accepting responsibi= lity.  That being said, I know it was not anything I did.  I will= likely purchase another plate, send them my damaged one and hope for the b= est...I want to move on.  I am sick and tired of messing with it....I = feel like I have been going in circles....so, so close, but so far.  I= think I would have been flying if it were not for this issue....however, i= t has allowed me to make my systems much better during the experience.
<= BR>Please check out the picture and ad any thoughts you may have.

Th= anks.

All the best,

Chris Barber
Houston

--
Home= page:  http://ww= w.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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