X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3554742 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 10:10:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.56; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-146-126-109.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.126.109]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20090321140933H0600p637de>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:09:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.126.109] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator (Off topic) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 10:09:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C9AA0D.24FBD370" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcmqJw1H0GvlW+zQSAiW9DGv3+UaEQABnMag X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C9AA0D.24FBD370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is why you should not turn your alternator on until after the engine starts. The alternator loads will almost double the load on the starter. The voltage regulator will call for maximum output from the alternator while the starter is cranking. For a 60A alternator this is about 720 watts. Darn near 1 HP! In cars, the alternator is automatically put to sleep during starting by the ignition switch. In planes, it is up to us. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of James Maher Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 9:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator (Off topic) George, I'm sorry to disagree with you but you are quite mistaken in your belief about the alternator function. The alternator output is mostly a function of load because of the voltage regulator, whose function is to keep the voltage constant with changes in load and RPM. It performs this function by varying the field current in the alternator. If fact this is one of the many advantages of the alternator over a generator. The alternator's voltage output is also more or less constant regardless of engine RPM, also due to the regulator's function. You said "The alternator charges the battery - which in turn runs the accessories". This is not exactly true. If the battery voltage is below that of the alternator output then yes the alternator will function to charge the battery, however if the battery is fully charged then the alternator will not be charging the battery but will provide the necessary power to drive any other loads connected to the system. So reducing the electrical load on the system will indeed reduce the mechanical load on the engine thereby using less overall energy. Hope this clarifies your misconception. Don't feel bad, many people do not fully understand even the most simple of electrical devices and the alternator/regulator charging system is fairly complex. Jim --- On Sat, 3/21/09, George Lendich wrote: From: George Lendich Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator (Off topic) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 5:07 AM Jim, To my way of thinking, the alternator is running with the engine RPM so the power generated is relative to the RPM. This can't be changed unless you disconnect the alternator. The alternator charges the battery - which in turn runs the accessories. So no savings can be made unless you disconnect the alternator. So turning off things does little - it only saves the battery charge which is being recharged whether you like it or not. Unless you put a clutch on the alternator. So no savings of HP or fuel. In some cases, systems like to have a continuous drain on the battery, like the Harleys. That's why they run around with their lights on - so they don't overheat the battery. The chaps who select 'lights on' rather than the hard wired factory systems, always have battery problems. George ( down under) It doesn't matter what is generating the electricity, a generator, alternator or battery it takes at least 1 HP to make 746 watts of electricity. That is the conversion factor under ideal conditions with an efficiency of 1. Of course in the real world there are losses that reduce the amount of electricity or increase the horsepower necessary. Alternators are probably more efficient than generators but then there are losses in the rectifier and regulator circuits. The laws of physics dictate that there is no free lunch. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another (mechanical,electrical,chemical etc.), and always with losses in the conversion process. So turning off electrical devices will reduce the load on the engine by whatever amount they draw plus what ever losses are required in the conversion. Jim --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Ben Baltrusaitis wrote: From: Ben Baltrusaitis Subject: [FlyRotary] Alternator (Off topic) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 9:08 AM Since it's quiet: When I was a kid a guy at the parts store demonstrated to my Dad that when electrical power was needed, a generator put a load on the engine. After that, my Dad was careful not to run lights, radio, heater fan, or other non-essentials when he was trying to get good gas mileage. I have continued that tradition, however, I have seen it stated that electrical draw on an alternator doesn't increase the mechanical load. When low on fuel will it help to turn off electrical components not needed for flight? Is it true of an alternator; an electrical power demand doesn't cause an increased mechanical load? Or, does keeping headlights on during the day decrease gas mileage? Thanks! Ben ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C9AA0D.24FBD370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is why you should not turn your alternator on until after = the engine starts.  The alternator loads will almost double the load on = the starter.  The voltage regulator will call for maximum output from = the alternator while the starter is cranking.  For a 60A alternator = this is about 720 watts.  Darn near 1 HP!  In cars, the alternator is automatically put to sleep during starting by the ignition switch.  = In planes, it is up to us.

 

Bill B

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of James Maher
Sent: Saturday, March 21, = 2009 9:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator (Off topic)

George,

I'm sorry to disagree with you but you are = quite mistaken in your belief about the

alternator = function.

The alternator output is mostly a function = of load because of the voltage regulator,

whose function is to keep the voltage = constant with changes in load and RPM.

It performs this function by varying the = field current in the alternator.

If fact this is one of the many advantages = of the alternator over a generator.

The alternator's voltage output is also = more or less constant regardless of engine RPM, also due to the regulator's = function.

You said "The alternator charges the = battery - which in turn runs the accessories".

This is not exactly true. If the battery = voltage is below that of the alternator output

then yes the alternator will function to = charge the battery, however if the battery is fully charged then the alternator = will not be charging the battery but will provide the necessary power to drive = any other loads connected to the system.

So reducing the electrical load on the = system will indeed reduce the mechanical load on

the engine thereby using less overall = energy.

Hope this clarifies your = misconception.

Don't feel bad, many people do not fully = understand even the most simple of electrical devices and the = alternator/regulator charging system is fairly complex.

Jim

--- On Sat, 3/21/09, George = Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

From: George = Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator (Off topic)
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 5:07 AM

 

 Jim,

To my way of thinking, the alternator is running = with the engine RPM so the power generated is relative to the RPM. This can't = be changed unless you disconnect the = alternator.

 

The alternator charges the battery - which in turn = runs the accessories.

 

So no savings can be made unless you disconnect the alternator.

 

So turning off things does little - it only saves = the battery charge which is being recharged whether you like it or = not.

Unless you put a clutch on the = alternator.

 

So no savings of HP or = fuel.

 

In some cases, systems like to have a continuous = drain on the battery, like the Harleys. That's why they run around with their = lights on - so they don't overheat the battery.  The chaps = who select 'lights on' rather than the hard wired factory systems, always = have battery problems. 

George ( down under)

 

It doesn't matter what is generating the electricity, a generator, alternator or battery it takes at least 1 = HP to make 746 watts of electricity.

That is the conversion factor under ideal conditions with an efficiency of 1.

Of course in the real world there are = losses that reduce the amount of electricity or increase the horsepower = necessary.

Alternators are probably more efficient = than generators but then there are losses in the rectifier and regulator circuits.

The laws of physics dictate that there is = no free lunch.

Energy can neither be created or = destroyed, only converted from one form to another

(mechanical,electrical,chemical etc.), = and always with losses in the conversion process.

So turning off electrical devices will = reduce the load on the engine by whatever amount they draw plus what ever = losses are required in the conversion.

Jim

--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Ben = Baltrusaitis <expressben@verizon.net> wrote:

From: Ben Baltrusaitis <expressben@verizon.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Alternator (Off topic)
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 9:08 AM

Since it's quiet:

 

When I was a kid a guy at the parts store demonstrated to my Dad that when electrical power was needed, a generator put a load on the engine. = After that, my Dad was careful not to run lights, radio, heater fan, or = other non-essentials when he was trying to get good gas = mileage.

 

I have continued that tradition, however, I have seen it stated that = electrical draw on an alternator doesn't increase the mechanical = load.

 

When low on fuel will it help to turn off electrical components not needed = for flight?

 

Is it true of an alternator; an electrical power demand doesn't cause an increased mechanical load?

 

Or, does keeping headlights on during the day decrease gas = mileage?

 

Thanks!

Ben

 

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