X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f12.google.com ([209.85.221.12] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3495829 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:13:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.12; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so2562391qyk.19 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=uJ5+M5tKy0h06Qa0HvQSPcRyO5B/RcuNAerGTVM+JoM=; b=kBkHAXxIesNz8fJf/7hzSQgCu7VVfQKXg82Xxfts8kum/IxVuFY/P73S473/bKsLxw aKqikFadg2t0XetCblSV2QXldC4PHDNxCJ8B4KcOY6uykOHc5KViRusSEqECiTFlAA1Y 54iO4Z+muvvRmPjv8w8d5RzTgmT2F1e1OjPiA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=KJ+RFy0sCaFZuYk4SGJYimmK5ZrnpeRW3yJTwAXE9Rw7jqC9A+umC272SHVu4hyK16 nYQa4ztkL2999i9NwMGMTTTJPU3XD9KQYL6rFwWdoaL0TuTu8DVGzGzeLipgEnI6h13x sZL3Qg3NYNhyAs1pcg65EPq7k9cb64WAYQ2ZE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.3.10 with SMTP id 10mr4018598qal.367.1234807979180; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:12:58 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d66a89560d0ff1e2 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0902161012i1d71a900of0c914612fba86c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Injector staging From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ca952f704da04630d2232 --0015175ca952f704da04630d2232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good point Dave, I have suggested a higher staging point to many builders having difficult stage tuning but almost invariably they tell me that things got worse after doing that (for unknown reasons). When moving the stage point, is is usually best to reset everything back to default and start over. I think builders are reluctant to "give up" all their previous tuning though. I have been moving the default staging point higher over the years because that has always worked well for me. My own is set to around 20 - 21" Hg. The other suggestion is to use Mode 6 (Post Stage mixture balance) to balance mixture at stage point PRIOR to doing any MAP table programming. This has eliminated 90% of MAP table tuning around the stage point on installations that I personally handled. Most important thing is to get a good mental understanding of what each program mode is doing prior to pushing the first button. Tracy On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, David Leonard wrote= : > You know, it is possible to eliminate the staging point all together. A > single pair of injectors is capable of all the needed fuel for our > applications. I have set the staging point (on computer A) at 32.5" MAP.= I > am only above that for short periods on climb out or if I am trying to > impress my friends in a race or something. That way I never deal with th= e > staging point while in the pattern, or when flying IFR approaches etc... = my > primaries are the 480cc stock. I keep computer B staged in the low 20's = for > posterity sake. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Mike Wills wrote: > >> Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. I had intended on getting one >> from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to find the time or cash. = I >> should have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS of tuning on the >> ground and actually having the engine running very well on the ground I = was >> shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after I got it >> installed. >> >> For anyone who might ask why I chose the EFISM over Tracy's EM2/3, my >> instrument panel was completely assembled before Tracy was producing the= EM. >> And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to back fit the EM >> after the fact would have required major panel surgery where the EFISM w= ent >> in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth giving up the >> G-meter). >> >> For the moment I plan on leaving the idle as is Ed. At idle and all of t= he >> low power settings (except the staging point) its fine in the air. I jus= t >> happened to hit right on the staging threshold and it was toggling back = and >> forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got to remember not to do that anymore!= I >> found years ago with my RV-6A that the lower you can get the idle the be= tter >> with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to slow down otherwise. >> >> Mike >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Ed Anderson >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41 AM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight >> >> Great to hear good flight reports, Mike. That's the pudding of the >> effort. >> >> >> >> I found that (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system >> during flight than on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently >> lean out a bit. In any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary f= or a >> bit more richness for smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than o= n >> the ground. Also, increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =96 it's no= t a >> welcome feeling to have the engine run anything other than smooth especi= ally >> when near the ground. >> >> >> >> Thanks for the Plug on the EFISM. I agree that the use of a graphical >> display of the fuel map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and >> valleys in their fuel map. So either Tracy's EM2/3 or (shameless plug = =96 >> learned that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in >> smoothing it out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bin= s >> are around =BD" =96 =BE" "wide" and each of the 128 bins should receive >> individual attention =96 however, I personally found it very difficult = to >> keep the engine stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it. >> Making it richer or leaner would most of the time change the manifold >> pressure as engine operation changed slightly =96 besides trying to tell= =BD" >> manifold pressure on my gauge was nearly impossible. >> >> >> >> There's no question you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safe= ly >> without such fine tuning =96 but, not really optimum. >> >> >> >> I'd like to keep hearing your flight reports, Mike. Flight safe. >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Mike Wills >> *Sent:* Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Second flight >> >> >> >> Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered during my first flight. >> Today was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps dur= ing >> climbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and stayed at full throttle = for >> a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in = the >> mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were still creeping up when I throt= tled >> back. Looks like I may be slightly over-propped. Temps still fine. >> >> >> >> Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew racetracks over the airport fo= r >> an hour. My flight test area is very restrictive. I've got a huge piece = of >> the desert to the east but have to cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 mi= les >> of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I have a few more hours on it = in >> flight and have 100% confidence. I have the Mexican border 2 miles south= , >> Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks = over >> the airport are going to be the norm for a few hours. >> >> >> >> So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. >> Temps 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've already met my goal fo= r >> this airplane on the second flight - this airplane is a little faster th= an >> my old RV-6A was at equal power settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it= . >> >> >> >> Looks like the revised static system has solved my airspeed indication >> problems. Stall speeds are in line with the Vans book numbers and airspe= ed >> correlates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed. Still need more left tr= im >> tab. >> >> >> >> The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without eith= er >> having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spen= t >> the better part of a year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pr= etty >> well done. On my first flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling wit= h >> mixtures and had a couple of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM= and >> spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I got the engine running smoother = than >> it ever has and now have it idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM low= er >> than I was ever able to get it previously. In my opinion you really HAVE= to >> have some sort of indication of what is loaded in the MAP table to >> effectively tune it. >> >> >> >> The only hiccup was when I came in to land. Tower asked for me to exten= d >> my downwind for traffic so I added a little power to hold altitude. And >> ended up setting the power right at the injector staging point, which st= ill >> seems to run a little lean. Nothing like having the engine cough just as= the >> runway is receding over your left shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds = to >> realize what was going on and then added a little power and that cleared= it >> up. >> >> >> >> Then managed to bounce the landing. How many landings can I log on one >> approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwheel rusty. And without the >> cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very different so I havent quite g= ot >> the pitch attitude figured out yet. >> >> >> >> Other impressions. The airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least >> not from the pilot's seat. The handling and control power still seem qui= te a >> bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). Not really clear why but mos= t of >> my flying in the -6A I had someone in the right seat so maybe the weight= ? >> Other than the rudder, the airplane flies perfectly straight. >> >> >> >> All things considered I'm real happy. This flight was considerably less >> stressful than the first and I actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly >> dont remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I took my glider data log= ger >> with me on this flight. I havent downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll k= now >> more about speeds, climb rate, etc. >> >> >> >> Dont know how you guys feel about these flight reports. Give me some >> feedback if you want more as my testing progresses. I know that I like >> reading about other's flight experiences as it motivated me to keep goin= g. >> After 13 years of building I'll tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd >> pressed harder to get it done sooner. >> >> >> >> Next flight will have to wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. >> Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours= to >> go! >> >> >> >> Mike Wills >> >> RV-4 N144MW >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > > --0015175ca952f704da04630d2232 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good point Dave,
  I have suggested a higher staging point to many = builders having difficult stage tuning but almost invariably they tell me t= hat things got worse after doing that (for unknown reasons).  When mov= ing the stage point, is is usually best to reset everything back to default= and start over.  I think builders are reluctant to "give up"= ; all their previous tuning though.  I have been moving the default st= aging point higher over the years because that has always worked well for m= e.  My own is set to around 20 - 21" Hg.

The other suggestion is to use Mode 6 (Post Stage mixture balance) = ; to balance mixture at stage point PRIOR to doing any MAP table programmin= g.  This has eliminated 90% of MAP table tuning around the stage point= on installations that I personally handled.

Most important thing is to get a good mental understanding of what each= program mode is doing prior to pushing the first button.

Tracy
<= br>
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, David L= eonard <wdleona= rd@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, it is p= ossible to eliminate the staging point all together.  A single pair of= injectors is capable of all the needed fuel for our applications.  I = have set the staging point (on computer A) at 32.5" MAP.  I am on= ly above that for short periods on climb out or if I am trying to impress m= y friends in a race or something.  That way I never deal with the stag= ing point while in the pattern, or when flying IFR approaches etc...  = my primaries are the 480cc stock.  I keep computer B staged in the low= 20's for posterity sake.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net<= br>http://RotaryRoste= r.net


On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM.= I had=20 intended on getting one from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to fi= nd=20 the time or cash. I should have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS o= f=20 tuning on the ground and actually having the engine running very well on th= e=20 ground I was shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after= I=20 got it installed.
 
For anyone who might ask why I chose t= he EFISM over=20 Tracy's EM2/3, my instrument panel was completely assembled before Trac= y was=20 producing the EM. And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to = back=20 fit the EM after the fact would have required major panel surgery where the= =20 EFISM went in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth giving= up=20 the G-meter).
 
For the moment I plan on leaving = the idle as=20 is Ed. At idle and all of the low power settings (except the staging=20 point) its fine in the air. I just happened to hit right on the stagin= g=20 threshold and it was toggling back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got= to=20 remember not to do that anymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A that the l= ower=20 you can get the idle the better with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to = slow=20 down otherwise.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second=20 flight

Great to hear good=20 flight reports, Mike.  That's the pudding of the=20 effort.

 

I found that=20 (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system during flight = than=20 on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently lean out a bit.&nbs= p; In=20 any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary for a bit more richnes= s for=20 smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on the ground.  Als= o,=20 increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =96 it's not a welcome feel= ing to have=20 the engine run anything other than smooth especially when near the=20 ground.

 

Thanks for the Plug=20 on the EFISM.  I agree that the use of a graphical display of the fu= el=20 map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and valleys in their fuel= =20 map.  So either Tracy's EM2/3 or (shameless plug =96 learned=20 that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in smoothing= it=20 out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bins are around = =BD" =96=20 =BE"  "wide" and each of the 128 bins should receive = individual attention =96=20 however, I personally  found it very difficult to keep the engine=20 stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it.  Making it ri= cher=20 or leaner would most of the time change the manifold pressure as engine= =20 operation changed slightly =96 besides trying to tell =BD" manifold = pressure on my=20 gauge was nearly impossible.

 

There's no question=20 you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safely without such fine= =20 tuning =96 but, not really optimum.

 

I'd like to keep=20 hearing your flight reports, Mike.  Flight=20 safe.

 

Ed

 

 

From:= =20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On= =20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
= Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Second=20 flight

 

Spent the last month addressing=20 issues uncovered during my first flight. Today was the day for flight num= ber=20 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were good.= =20 Leveled out and stayed at full throttle for a couple of minutes just to s= ee=20 what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was 550= 0.=20 Both were still creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be=20 slightly over-propped. Temps still fine.

 

 Throttled back to 5000 RPM=20 and just flew racetracks over the airport for an hour. My flight test are= a is=20 very restrictive. I've got a huge piece of the desert to the east but= have to=20 cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get the= re. Not=20 until I have a few more hours on it in flight and have 100% confidence. I= have=20 the Mexican border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific O= cean 5 miles west. So racetracks over the=20 airport are going to be the norm for a few=20 hours.

 

 So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM,=20 roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Temps 170 on the coola= nt and 168=20 on the oil. I've already met my goal for this airplane on the se= cond=20 flight - this airplane is a little faster than my old RV-6A was at equal = power=20 settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it.

 

 Looks like the revised=20 static system has solved my airspeed indication problems. Stall speeds ar= e in=20 line with the Vans book numbers and airspeed correlates pretty well with = the=20 GPS groundspeed. Still need more left trim=20 tab.

 

 The engine ran great. Anyone=20 trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without either having an EM2/3 or=20 Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spent the better= part of a=20 year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pretty well done. On my = first=20 flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling with mixtures and had a cou= ple=20 of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days tweak= ing. In=20 the process I got the engine running smoother than it ever has and now ha= ve it=20 idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to ge= t it=20 previously. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of indic= ation=20 of what is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune=20 it.

 

 The only hiccup was when I=20 came in to land. Tower asked for me to extend my downwind for traffic so = I=20 added a little power to hold altitude. And ended up setting the power rig= ht at=20 the injector staging point, which still seems to run a little lean. Nothi= ng=20 like having the engine cough just as the runway is receding over your lef= t=20 shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and th= en=20 added a little power and that cleared it=20 up.

 

 Then managed to bounce the=20 landing. How many landings can I log on one approach? Oh well, I guess I&= #39;m a=20 little tailwheel rusty. And without the cowl cheeks the view over the nos= e is=20 very different so I havent quite got the pitch attitude figured out=20 yet.

 

 Other impressions. The=20 airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least not from the pilot's= seat.=20 The handling and control power still seem quite a bit better than my RV-6= A=20 (which was great). Not really clear why but most of my flying in the -6A = I had=20 someone in the right seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, the= =20 airplane flies perfectly straight.

 

 All things considered I'm=20 real happy. This flight was considerably less stressful than the first an= d I=20 actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly dont remember a lot of the firs= t=20 flight. Also, I took my glider data logger with me on this flight. I have= nt=20 downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll know more about speeds, climb r= ate,=20 etc.

 

 Dont know how you guys feel=20 about these flight reports. Give me some feedback if you want more as my= =20 testing progresses. I know that I like reading about other's flight= =20 experiences as it motivated me to keep going. After 13 years of building = I'll=20 tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed harder to get it done= =20 sooner.

 

 Next flight will have to=20 wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. Classic RV - pretty bad shimm= y on=20 the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours to=20 go!

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com<= /span>





--0015175ca952f704da04630d2232--