X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.235] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3495660 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:48:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.235; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1816620rvf.7 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:47:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=+N6HI9FbV3LzZOJ+b/Me5JA0kdoWh0VczZe7p5eaGSc=; b=pTQoqldWQlaTYEJpi3X99e4SIJk6iNROcjtwGZw3+ehoBg8qWIomVA7ILrYnUIIw6B bfqar1uuiUUIU44jfacGaI1Yiaj6Mc0am5amQK08HvJ/pJqYzKOQzQSxUIhiuvuTRjcL DPCAXikQpWSua9emwkLEMGru2NXoJmd/o60uA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=vmBE+pKjRRwVOqNkYI+0yBm6t5cFxYOSnku6Ue2Z2x5rEauBL2yTm27xYgTBZXAYIO zlaOmLvTJIM2/opV8ILw5CbjfXHYjMnmf/Dy6uCDWe1JyBUjl80hH4XFNokAfLX+UvH2 veNbVR1xtui6N8s+z9/e3fws7ZxUQJCi+NMHc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.174.20 with SMTP id w20mr1757370rve.87.1234802878123; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:47:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:47:58 -0800 Message-ID: <1c23473f0902160847h65007269l592d3b8b53b6a37a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Injector staging From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd147f2eb0d3004630bf292 --000e0cd147f2eb0d3004630bf292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, it is possible to eliminate the staging point all together. A single pair of injectors is capable of all the needed fuel for our applications. I have set the staging point (on computer A) at 32.5" MAP. = I am only above that for short periods on climb out or if I am trying to impress my friends in a race or something. That way I never deal with the staging point while in the pattern, or when flying IFR approaches etc... m= y primaries are the 480cc stock. I keep computer B staged in the low 20's fo= r posterity sake. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Mike Wills wrote: > Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. I had intended on getting one fro= m > the time I saw yours - just never seemed to find the time or cash. I shou= ld > have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS of tuning on the ground an= d > actually having the engine running very well on the ground I was shocked = to > see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after I got it installed. > > For anyone who might ask why I chose the EFISM over Tracy's EM2/3, my > instrument panel was completely assembled before Tracy was producing the = EM. > And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to back fit the EM > after the fact would have required major panel surgery where the EFISM we= nt > in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth giving up the > G-meter). > > For the moment I plan on leaving the idle as is Ed. At idle and all of th= e > low power settings (except the staging point) its fine in the air. I just > happened to hit right on the staging threshold and it was toggling back a= nd > forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got to remember not to do that anymore! = I > found years ago with my RV-6A that the lower you can get the idle the bet= ter > with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to slow down otherwise. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight > > Great to hear good flight reports, Mike. That's the pudding of the > effort. > > > > I found that (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system > during flight than on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently > lean out a bit. In any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary fo= r a > bit more richness for smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on > the ground. Also, increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =96 it's not= a > welcome feeling to have the engine run anything other than smooth especia= lly > when near the ground. > > > > Thanks for the Plug on the EFISM. I agree that the use of a graphical > display of the fuel map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and > valleys in their fuel map. So either Tracy's EM2/3 or (shameless plug = =96 > learned that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in > smoothing it out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bins > are around =BD" =96 =BE" "wide" and each of the 128 bins should receive > individual attention =96 however, I personally found it very difficult t= o > keep the engine stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it. > Making it richer or leaner would most of the time change the manifold > pressure as engine operation changed slightly =96 besides trying to tell = =BD" > manifold pressure on my gauge was nearly impossible. > > > > There's no question you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safel= y > without such fine tuning =96 but, not really optimum. > > > > I'd like to keep hearing your flight reports, Mike. Flight safe. > > > > Ed > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Second flight > > > > Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered during my first flight. > Today was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps duri= ng > climbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and stayed at full throttle f= or > a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in t= he > mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were still creeping up when I thrott= led > back. Looks like I may be slightly over-propped. Temps still fine. > > > > Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew racetracks over the airport for > an hour. My flight test area is very restrictive. I've got a huge piece o= f > the desert to the east but have to cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 mil= es > of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I have a few more hours on it i= n > flight and have 100% confidence. I have the Mexican border 2 miles south, > Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks o= ver > the airport are going to be the norm for a few hours. > > > > So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Tem= ps > 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've already met my goal for this > airplane on the second flight - this airplane is a little faster than my = old > RV-6A was at equal power settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it. > > > > Looks like the revised static system has solved my airspeed indication > problems. Stall speeds are in line with the Vans book numbers and airspee= d > correlates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed. Still need more left tri= m > tab. > > > > The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without eithe= r > having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spent > the better part of a year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pre= tty > well done. On my first flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling with > mixtures and had a couple of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM = and > spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I got the engine running smoother t= han > it ever has and now have it idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lowe= r > than I was ever able to get it previously. In my opinion you really HAVE = to > have some sort of indication of what is loaded in the MAP table to > effectively tune it. > > > > The only hiccup was when I came in to land. Tower asked for me to extend > my downwind for traffic so I added a little power to hold altitude. And > ended up setting the power right at the injector staging point, which sti= ll > seems to run a little lean. Nothing like having the engine cough just as = the > runway is receding over your left shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds t= o > realize what was going on and then added a little power and that cleared = it > up. > > > > Then managed to bounce the landing. How many landings can I log on one > approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwheel rusty. And without the > cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very different so I havent quite go= t > the pitch attitude figured out yet. > > > > Other impressions. The airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least > not from the pilot's seat. The handling and control power still seem quit= e a > bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). Not really clear why but most= of > my flying in the -6A I had someone in the right seat so maybe the weight? > Other than the rudder, the airplane flies perfectly straight. > > > > All things considered I'm real happy. This flight was considerably less > stressful than the first and I actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly > dont remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I took my glider data logg= er > with me on this flight. I havent downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll kn= ow > more about speeds, climb rate, etc. > > > > Dont know how you guys feel about these flight reports. Give me some > feedback if you want more as my testing progresses. I know that I like > reading about other's flight experiences as it motivated me to keep going= . > After 13 years of building I'll tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd > pressed harder to get it done sooner. > > > > Next flight will have to wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. > Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours = to > go! > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > --000e0cd147f2eb0d3004630bf292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, it is possible to eliminate the staging point all together. = A single pair of injectors is capable of all the needed fuel for our appli= cations.  I have set the staging point (on computer A) at 32.5" M= AP.  I am only above that for short periods on climb out or if I am tr= ying to impress my friends in a race or something.  That way I never d= eal with the staging point while in the pattern, or when flying IFR approac= hes etc...  my primaries are the 480cc stock.  I keep computer B = staged in the low 20's for posterity sake.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM.= I had=20 intended on getting one from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to fi= nd=20 the time or cash. I should have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS o= f=20 tuning on the ground and actually having the engine running very well on th= e=20 ground I was shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after= I=20 got it installed.
 
For anyone who might ask why I chose t= he EFISM over=20 Tracy's EM2/3, my instrument panel was completely assembled before Trac= y was=20 producing the EM. And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to = back=20 fit the EM after the fact would have required major panel surgery where the= =20 EFISM went in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth giving= up=20 the G-meter).
 
For the moment I plan on leaving = the idle as=20 is Ed. At idle and all of the low power settings (except the staging=20 point) its fine in the air. I just happened to hit right on the stagin= g=20 threshold and it was toggling back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got= to=20 remember not to do that anymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A that the l= ower=20 you can get the idle the better with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to = slow=20 down otherwise.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second=20 flight

Great to hear good=20 flight reports, Mike.  That's the pudding of the=20 effort.

 

I found that=20 (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system during flight = than=20 on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently lean out a bit.&nbs= p; In=20 any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary for a bit more richnes= s for=20 smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on the ground.  Als= o,=20 increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =96 it's not a welcome feeling = to have=20 the engine run anything other than smooth especially when near the=20 ground.

 

Thanks for the Plug=20 on the EFISM.  I agree that the use of a graphical display of the fu= el=20 map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and valleys in their fuel= =20 map.  So either Tracy's EM2/3 or (shameless plug =96 learned=20 that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in smoothing= it=20 out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bins are around = =BD" =96=20 =BE"  "wide" and each of the 128 bins should receive individual atte= ntion =96=20 however, I personally  found it very difficult to keep the engine=20 stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it.  Making it ri= cher=20 or leaner would most of the time change the manifold pressure as engine= =20 operation changed slightly =96 besides trying to tell =BD" manifold press= ure on my=20 gauge was nearly impossible.

 

There's no question=20 you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safely without such fine= =20 tuning =96 but, not really optimum.

 

I'd like to keep=20 hearing your flight reports, Mike.  Flight=20 safe.

 

Ed

 

 

From:= =20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On= =20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
= Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Second=20 flight

 

Spent the last month addressing=20 issues uncovered during my first flight. Today was the day for flight num= ber=20 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were good.= =20 Leveled out and stayed at full throttle for a couple of minutes just to s= ee=20 what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was 550= 0.=20 Both were still creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be=20 slightly over-propped. Temps still fine.

 

 Throttled back to 5000 RPM=20 and just flew racetracks over the airport for an hour. My flight test are= a is=20 very restrictive. I've got a huge piece of the desert to the east but= have to=20 cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get the= re. Not=20 until I have a few more hours on it in flight and have 100% confidence. I= have=20 the Mexican border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific O= cean 5 miles west. So racetracks over the=20 airport are going to be the norm for a few=20 hours.

 

 So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM,=20 roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Temps 170 on the coola= nt and 168=20 on the oil. I've already met my goal for this airplane on the se= cond=20 flight - this airplane is a little faster than my old RV-6A was at equal = power=20 settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it.

 

 Looks like the revised=20 static system has solved my airspeed indication problems. Stall speeds ar= e in=20 line with the Vans book numbers and airspeed correlates pretty well with = the=20 GPS groundspeed. Still need more left trim=20 tab.

 

 The engine ran great. Anyone=20 trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without either having an EM2/3 or=20 Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spent the better= part of a=20 year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pretty well done. On my = first=20 flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling with mixtures and had a cou= ple=20 of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days tweak= ing. In=20 the process I got the engine running smoother than it ever has and now ha= ve it=20 idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to ge= t it=20 previously. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of indic= ation=20 of what is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune=20 it.

 

 The only hiccup was when I=20 came in to land. Tower asked for me to extend my downwind for traffic so = I=20 added a little power to hold altitude. And ended up setting the power rig= ht at=20 the injector staging point, which still seems to run a little lean. Nothi= ng=20 like having the engine cough just as the runway is receding over your lef= t=20 shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and th= en=20 added a little power and that cleared it=20 up.

 

 Then managed to bounce the=20 landing. How many landings can I log on one approach? Oh well, I guess I&= #39;m a=20 little tailwheel rusty. And without the cowl cheeks the view over the nos= e is=20 very different so I havent quite got the pitch attitude figured out=20 yet.

 

 Other impressions. The=20 airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least not from the pilot's= seat.=20 The handling and control power still seem quite a bit better than my RV-6= A=20 (which was great). Not really clear why but most of my flying in the -6A = I had=20 someone in the right seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, the= =20 airplane flies perfectly straight.

 

 All things considered I'm=20 real happy. This flight was considerably less stressful than the first an= d I=20 actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly dont remember a lot of the firs= t=20 flight. Also, I took my glider data logger with me on this flight. I have= nt=20 downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll know more about speeds, climb r= ate,=20 etc.

 

 Dont know how you guys feel=20 about these flight reports. Give me some feedback if you want more as my= =20 testing progresses. I know that I like reading about other's flight= =20 experiences as it motivated me to keep going. After 13 years of building = I'll=20 tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed harder to get it done= =20 sooner.

 

 Next flight will have to=20 wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. Classic RV - pretty bad shimm= y on=20 the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours to=20 go!

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com<= /span>




--000e0cd147f2eb0d3004630bf292--