X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3495591 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:06:08 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.48; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from OMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.11]) by QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id GeGd1b00C0EPchoA5g5YZa; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:05:32 +0000 Received: from sz0070.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.26.124]) by OMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Gg5Y1b0092gfN2s8Mg5Yt6; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:05:32 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:05:32 +0000 (UTC) From: wschertz@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <2010736837.1536191234800332510.JavaMail.root@sz0070a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76111_1025499316.1234800332509" X-Originating-IP: [146.139.77.118] X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.11_GA_2730.RHEL5_64 (ZimbraWebClient - IE7 (Win)/5.0.11_GA_2730.RHEL5_64) ------=_Part_76111_1025499316.1234800332509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike,=20 I am interested in receiving as many flight reports as possible, please kee= p them coming.=20 Bill Schertz=20 (freeze plug reinstalled, now working on fixing the cowl)=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mike Wills" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:52:46 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight=20 Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. I had intended on getting one from t= he time I saw yours - just never seemed to find the time or cash. I should = have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS of tuning on the ground and = actually having the engine running very well on the ground I was shocked to= see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after I got it installed.=20 For anyone who might ask why I chose the EFISM over Tracy's EM2/3, my instr= ument panel was completely assembled before Tracy was producing the EM. And= I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to back fit the EM after= the fact would have required major panel surgery where the EFISM went in a= n existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth giving up the G-meter= ).=20 For the moment I=C2=A0plan on leaving the idle as is Ed. At idle and all of= the low power settings (except the staging point)=C2=A0its fine in the air= . I just happened to hit right on the staging threshold and it was toggling= back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got to remember not to do that a= nymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A that the lower you can get the idle= the better with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to slow down otherwise.= =20 Mike=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight=20 Great to hear good flight reports, Mike.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s the pudding o= f the effort.=20 I found that (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system dur= ing flight than on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently lean = out a bit.=C2=A0 In any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary for = a bit more richness for smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on= the ground.=C2=A0 Also, increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =E2=80= =93 it=E2=80=99s not a welcome feeling to have the engine run anything othe= r than smooth especially when near the ground.=20 Thanks for the Plug on the EFISM.=C2=A0 I agree that the use of a graphical= display of the fuel map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and val= leys in their fuel map.=C2=A0 So either Tracy=E2=80=99s EM2/3 or (shameless= plug =E2=80=93 learned that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly = assist in smoothing it out and getting a smoother running engine. The manif= old bins are around =C2=BD=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =C2=BE=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 =E2=80= =9Cwide=E2=80=9D and each of the 128 bins should receive individual attenti= on =E2=80=93 however, I personally =C2=A0found it very difficult to keep th= e engine stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it.=C2=A0 Makin= g it richer or leaner would most of the time change the manifold pressure a= s engine operation changed slightly =E2=80=93 besides trying to tell =C2=BD= =E2=80=9D manifold pressure on my gauge was nearly impossible.=20 There=E2=80=99s no question you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly= safely without such fine tuning =E2=80=93 but, not really optimum.=20 I=E2=80=99d like to keep hearing your flight reports, Mike.=C2=A0 Flight sa= fe.=20 Ed=20 Ed Anderson=20 Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=20 Matthews, NC=20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 http://www.andersonee.com=20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mike Wills=20 Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Second flight=20 Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered during my first flight. To= day was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps during c= limbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and stayed at full throttle for = a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in the= mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were still creeping up when I throttl= ed back. Looks like I may be slightly over-propped. Temps still fine.=20 =C2=A0Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew racetracks over the airport = for an hour. My flight test area is very restrictive. I've got a huge piece= of the desert to the east but have to cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 m= iles of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I have a few more hours on i= t in flight and have 100% confidence. I have the Mexican border 2 miles sou= th, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks= over the airport are going to be the norm for a few hours.=20 =C2=A0So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. = Temps 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've already met my goal for t= his airplane=C2=A0on the second flight - this airplane is a little faster t= han my old RV-6A was at equal power settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in i= t.=20 =C2=A0Looks like the revised static system has solved my airspeed indicatio= n problems. Stall speeds are in line with the Vans book numbers and airspee= d correlates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed. Still need more left tri= m tab.=20 =C2=A0The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without ei= ther having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I sp= ent the better part of a year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it p= retty well done. On my first flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling = with mixtures and had a couple of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFI= SM and spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I got the engine running smoot= her than it ever has and now have it idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 R= PM lower than I was ever able to get it previously. In my opinion you reall= y=C2=A0HAVE to have some sort of indication of what is loaded in the MAP ta= ble to effectively tune it.=20 =C2=A0The only hiccup was when I came in to land. Tower asked for me to ext= end my downwind for traffic so I added a little power to hold altitude. And= ended up setting the power right at the injector staging point, which stil= l seems to run a little lean. Nothing like having the engine cough just as = the runway is receding over your left shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds= to realize what was going on and then added a little power and that cleare= d it up.=20 =C2=A0Then managed to bounce the landing. How many landings can I log on on= e approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwheel rusty. And without the = cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very different so I havent quite got = the pitch attitude figured out yet.=20 =C2=A0Other impressions. The airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At lea= st not from the pilot's seat. The handling and control power still seem qui= te a bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). Not really clear why but m= ost of my flying in the -6A I had someone in the right seat so maybe the we= ight? Other than the rudder, the airplane flies perfectly straight.=20 =C2=A0All things considered I'm real happy. This flight was considerably le= ss stressful than the first and I actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly= dont remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I took my glider data logge= r with me on this flight. I havent downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll kn= ow more about speeds, climb rate, etc.=20 =C2=A0Dont know how you guys feel about these flight reports. Give me some = feedback if you want more as my testing progresses. I know that I like read= ing about other's flight experiences as it motivated me to keep going. Afte= r 13 years of building I'll tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed = harder to get it done sooner.=20 =C2=A0Next flight will have to wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. = Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours to= go!=20 Mike Wills=20 RV-4 N144MW=20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________=20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.=20 http://www.eset.com ------=_Part_76111_1025499316.1234800332509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>

Mike,<= /P>

I am interested in receiving as many flight reports as possible, please = keep them coming.

Bill Schertz

(freeze plug reinstalled, now working on fixing the cowl)
----- Origi= nal Message -----
From: "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: "Ro= tary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monda= y, February 16, 2009 8:52:46 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Second flight

Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. I h= ad intended on getting one from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to= find the time or cash. I should have done it a long time ago. After doing = LOTS of tuning on the ground and actually having the engine running very we= ll on the ground I was shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP t= able after I got it installed.
 
For anyone who might ask why I chose the E= FISM over Tracy's EM2/3, my instrument panel was completely assembled befor= e Tracy was producing the EM. And I already had an engine monitor installed= . Trying to back fit the EM after the fact would have required major panel = surgery where the EFISM went in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt i= t was worth giving up the G-meter).
 
For the moment I plan on leaving the = idle as is Ed. At idle and all of the low power settings (except the stagin= g point) its fine in the air. I just happened to hit right on the stag= ing threshold and it was toggling back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors.= Got to remember not to do that anymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A th= at the lower you can get the idle the better with a fixed pitch prop. They = dont like to slow down otherwise.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
= From: Ed Anderson
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flig= ht

Great to hear good fl= ight reports, Mike.  That=E2=80=99s the pudding of the effort.<= /FONT>

 <= /P>

I found that (apparen= tly due to ) more air flow in the induction system during flight than on th= e ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently lean out a bit.  In a= ny case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary for a bit more richness f= or smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on the ground.  Al= so, increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s not a = welcome feeling to have the engine run anything other than smooth especiall= y when near the ground.

 <= /P>

Thanks for the Plug o= n the EFISM.  I agree that the use of a graphical display of the fuel = map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and valleys in their fuel ma= p.  So either Tracy=E2=80=99s EM2/3 or (shameless plug =E2=80=93 learn= ed that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in smoothin= g it out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bins are aroun= d =C2=BD=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =C2=BE=E2=80=9D  =E2=80=9Cwide=E2=80=9D an= d each of the 128 bins should receive individual attention =E2=80=93 howeve= r, I personally  found it very difficult to keep the engine stabilized= in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it.  Making it richer or lean= er would most of the time change the manifold pressure as engine operation = changed slightly =E2=80=93 besides trying to tell =C2=BD=E2=80=9D manifold = pressure on my gauge was nearly impossible.

 <= /P>

There=E2=80=99s no qu= estion you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safely without such = fine tuning =E2=80=93 but, not really optimum.

 <= /P>

I=E2=80=99d like to k= eep hearing your flight reports, Mike.  Flight safe.

 <= /P>

Ed

 <= /P>

 <= /P>

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.h= tml

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.ne= t/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1= 1:52 PM
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft
Subject: [= FlyRotary] Second flight

 

Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered = during my first flight. Today was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in t= he low 50s. Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and st= ayed at full throttle for a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw= indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were still = creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be slightly over-proppe= d. Temps still fine.

 

 Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew ra= cetracks over the airport for an hour. My flight test area is very restrict= ive. I've got a huge piece of the desert to the east but have to cross a 35= 00' mountain and 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I = have a few more hours on it in flight and have 100% confidence. I have the = Mexican border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5= miles west. So racetracks over the airport are going to be the norm for a = few hours.

 

 So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP= , and indicating 140 KTS. Temps 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've= already met my goal for this airplane on the second flight - this air= plane is a little faster than my old RV-6A was at equal power settings. The= -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it.

 

 Looks like the revised static system has so= lved my airspeed indication problems. Stall speeds are in line with the Van= s book numbers and airspeed correlates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed= . Still need more left trim tab.

 

 The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune= up Tracy's EC2 without either having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you'= re wasting your time. I spent the better part of a year tweaking the MAP ta= ble and thought I had it pretty well done. On my first flight I spent a fai= r amount of time fiddling with mixtures and had a couple of rough running s= pots. I installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I go= t the engine running smoother than it ever has and now have it idling nicel= y at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to get it previousl= y. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of indication of wh= at is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune it.

 

 The only hiccup was when I came in to land.= Tower asked for me to extend my downwind for traffic so I added a little p= ower to hold altitude. And ended up setting the power right at the injector= staging point, which still seems to run a little lean. Nothing like having= the engine cough just as the runway is receding over your left shoulder. T= ook me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and then added a li= ttle power and that cleared it up.

 

 Then managed to bounce the landing. How man= y landings can I log on one approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwhe= el rusty. And without the cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very differ= ent so I havent quite got the pitch attitude figured out yet.=

 

 Other impressions. The airplane is loud, bu= t not painfully so. At least not from the pilot's seat. The handling and co= ntrol power still seem quite a bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). = Not really clear why but most of my flying in the -6A I had someone in the = right seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, the airplane flies p= erfectly straight.

 

 All things considered I'm real happy. This = flight was considerably less stressful than the first and I actually was ab= le to enjoy it. I honestly dont remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I= took my glider data logger with me on this flight. I havent downloaded it = yet, but when I do I'll know more about speeds, climb rate, etc.

 

 Dont know how you guys feel about these fli= ght reports. Give me some feedback if you want more as my testing progresse= s. I know that I like reading about other's flight experiences as it motiva= ted me to keep going. After 13 years of building I'll tell you, its worth i= t. Now I wish I'd pressed harder to get it done sooner.

 

 Next flight will have to wait until I get g= ear leg stiffeners added. Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out af= ter landing. 38.5 hours to go!

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus,= version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The = message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_Part_76111_1025499316.1234800332509--