X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3495493 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:53:29 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090216145248.PZOR2948.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:48 -0500 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id Gesj1b0041CvZmk04esmNA; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:52:47 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=vAtEmiY-ExT8YCpSD1gA:9 a=43cZB9ShoTu7IntxDqAA:7 a=mf1tB1TXAOHz-iittx-nykMsd-YA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=WN8zLioqDSwA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=zJhlkGnJjkwLSa5mMxcA:9 a=QouzElDzW4BXkDYzLw8A:7 a=VN_ccGr5zyRliQTQo68NsOGF0bQA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <001901c99046$3b134980$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 06:52:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C99003.2CA14D40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C99003.2CA14D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. I had intended on getting one = from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to find the time or cash. = I should have done it a long time ago. After doing LOTS of tuning on the = ground and actually having the engine running very well on the ground I = was shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP table after I got = it installed. For anyone who might ask why I chose the EFISM over Tracy's EM2/3, my = instrument panel was completely assembled before Tracy was producing the = EM. And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying to back fit = the EM after the fact would have required major panel surgery where the = EFISM went in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth = giving up the G-meter). For the moment I plan on leaving the idle as is Ed. At idle and all of = the low power settings (except the staging point) its fine in the air. I = just happened to hit right on the staging threshold and it was toggling = back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors. Got to remember not to do that = anymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A that the lower you can get the = idle the better with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like to slow down = otherwise. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:41 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight Great to hear good flight reports, Mike. That's the pudding of the = effort. =20 I found that (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction = system during flight than on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to = apparently lean out a bit. In any case, whatever the cause, I found it = necessary for a bit more richness for smooth reliable low rpm operation = in flight than on the ground. Also, increasing your idle rpm a bit = could help - it's not a welcome feeling to have the engine run anything = other than smooth especially when near the ground. =20 Thanks for the Plug on the EFISM. I agree that the use of a graphical = display of the fuel map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and = valleys in their fuel map. So either Tracy's EM2/3 or (shameless plug - = learned that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in = smoothing it out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold = bins are around =BD" - =BE" "wide" and each of the 128 bins should = receive individual attention - however, I personally found it very = difficult to keep the engine stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried = to tune it. Making it richer or leaner would most of the time change = the manifold pressure as engine operation changed slightly - besides = trying to tell =BD" manifold pressure on my gauge was nearly impossible. =20 There's no question you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly = safely without such fine tuning - but, not really optimum. =20 I'd like to keep hearing your flight reports, Mike. Flight safe. =20 Ed =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Second flight =20 Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered during my first = flight. Today was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in the low 50s. = Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and stayed at = full throttle for a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw = indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were = still creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be slightly = over-propped. Temps still fine. =20 Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew racetracks over the airport = for an hour. My flight test area is very restrictive. I've got a huge = piece of the desert to the east but have to cross a 3500' mountain and = 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I have a few = more hours on it in flight and have 100% confidence. I have the Mexican = border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5 = miles west. So racetracks over the airport are going to be the norm for = a few hours. =20 So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. = Temps 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've already met my goal = for this airplane on the second flight - this airplane is a little = faster than my old RV-6A was at equal power settings. The -6A had a 160 = HP Lyc in it. =20 Looks like the revised static system has solved my airspeed = indication problems. Stall speeds are in line with the Vans book numbers = and airspeed correlates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed. Still need = more left trim tab. =20 The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without = either having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. = I spent the better part of a year tweaking the MAP table and thought I = had it pretty well done. On my first flight I spent a fair amount of = time fiddling with mixtures and had a couple of rough running spots. I = installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I got the = engine running smoother than it ever has and now have it idling nicely = at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to get it = previously. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of = indication of what is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune it. =20 The only hiccup was when I came in to land. Tower asked for me to = extend my downwind for traffic so I added a little power to hold = altitude. And ended up setting the power right at the injector staging = point, which still seems to run a little lean. Nothing like having the = engine cough just as the runway is receding over your left shoulder. = Took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and then added = a little power and that cleared it up. =20 Then managed to bounce the landing. How many landings can I log on = one approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwheel rusty. And without = the cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very different so I havent = quite got the pitch attitude figured out yet. =20 Other impressions. The airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At = least not from the pilot's seat. The handling and control power still = seem quite a bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). Not really = clear why but most of my flying in the -6A I had someone in the right = seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, the airplane flies = perfectly straight. =20 All things considered I'm real happy. This flight was considerably = less stressful than the first and I actually was able to enjoy it. I = honestly dont remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I took my glider = data logger with me on this flight. I havent downloaded it yet, but when = I do I'll know more about speeds, climb rate, etc. =20 Dont know how you guys feel about these flight reports. Give me some = feedback if you want more as my testing progresses. I know that I like = reading about other's flight experiences as it motivated me to keep = going. After 13 years of building I'll tell you, its worth it. Now I = wish I'd pressed harder to get it done sooner. =20 Next flight will have to wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. = Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours = to go! =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C99003.2CA14D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes Dave, you were right on the EFISM. = I had=20 intended on getting one from the time I saw yours - just never seemed to = find=20 the time or cash. I should have done it a long time ago. After doing = LOTS of=20 tuning on the ground and actually having the engine running very well on = the=20 ground I was shocked to see how many gaps there were in the MAP table = after I=20 got it installed.
 
For anyone who might ask why I chose = the EFISM over=20 Tracy's EM2/3, my instrument panel was completely assembled before Tracy = was=20 producing the EM. And I already had an engine monitor installed. Trying = to back=20 fit the EM after the fact would have required major panel surgery where = the=20 EFISM went in an existing 2.25 instrument hole ( I felt it was worth = giving up=20 the G-meter).
 
For the moment I plan on leaving = the idle as=20 is Ed. At idle and all of the low power settings (except the staging=20 point) its fine in the air. I just happened to hit right on the = staging=20 threshold and it was toggling back and forth between 2 and 4 injectors. = Got to=20 remember not to do that anymore! I found years ago with my RV-6A that = the lower=20 you can get the idle the better with a fixed pitch prop. They dont like = to slow=20 down otherwise.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 = 4:41=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Second = flight

Great to = hear good=20 flight reports, Mike.  That=92s the pudding of the=20 effort.

 

I found = that=20 (apparently due to ) more air flow in the induction system during = flight than=20 on the ground that air/fuel ratios tend to apparently lean out a = bit.  In=20 any case, whatever the cause, I found it necessary for a bit more = richness for=20 smooth reliable low rpm operation in flight than on the ground.  = Also,=20 increasing your idle rpm a bit could help =96 it=92s not a welcome = feeling to have=20 the engine run anything other than smooth especially when near the=20 ground.

 

Thanks for = the Plug=20 on the EFISM.  I agree that the use of a graphical display of the = fuel=20 map is much easier for most folks to see peaks and valleys in their = fuel=20 map.  So either Tracy=92s EM2/3 or (shameless plug = =96 learned=20 that phrase from someone {:>)) the EFISM can truly assist in = smoothing it=20 out and getting a smoother running engine. The manifold bins are = around =BD=94 =96=20 =BE=94  =93wide=94 and each of the 128 bins should receive = individual attention =96=20 however, I personally  found it very difficult to keep the engine = stabilized in a pressure bin while I tried to tune it.  Making it = richer=20 or leaner would most of the time change the manifold pressure as = engine=20 operation changed slightly =96 besides trying to tell =BD=94 manifold = pressure on my=20 gauge was nearly impossible.

 

There=92s = no question=20 you can get the engine tuned well enough to fly safely without such = fine=20 tuning =96 but, not really optimum.

 

I=92d like = to keep=20 hearing your flight reports, Mike.  Flight=20 safe.

 

Ed

 

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 = 11:52=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Second=20 flight

 

Spent the last month = addressing=20 issues uncovered during my first flight. Today was the day for flight = number=20 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were = good.=20 Leveled out and stayed at full throttle for a couple of minutes just = to see=20 what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was = 5500.=20 Both were still creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be = slightly over-propped. Temps still = fine.

 

 Throttled back to = 5000 RPM=20 and just flew racetracks over the airport for an hour. My flight test = area is=20 very restrictive. I've got a huge piece of the desert to the east but = have to=20 cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get = there. Not=20 until I have a few more hours on it in flight and have 100% = confidence. I have=20 the Mexican border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the = Pacific Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks over = the=20 airport are going to be the norm for a few=20 hours.

 

 So, 5,000', 5,000 = RPM,=20 roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Temps 170 on the coolant = and 168=20 on the oil. I've already met my goal for this airplane on the = second=20 flight - this airplane is a little faster than my old RV-6A was at = equal power=20 settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in = it.

 

 Looks like the = revised=20 static system has solved my airspeed indication problems. Stall speeds = are in=20 line with the Vans book numbers and airspeed correlates pretty well = with the=20 GPS groundspeed. Still need more left trim=20 tab.

 

 The engine ran = great. Anyone=20 trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without either having = an EM2/3 or=20 Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spent the better part = of a=20 year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pretty well done. On = my first=20 flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling with mixtures and had a = couple=20 of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days = tweaking. In=20 the process I got the engine running smoother than it ever has and now = have it=20 idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to = get it=20 previously. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of = indication=20 of what is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune=20 it.

 

 The only hiccup = was when I=20 came in to land. Tower asked for me to extend my downwind for traffic = so I=20 added a little power to hold altitude. And ended up setting the power = right at=20 the injector staging point, which still seems to run a little lean. = Nothing=20 like having the engine cough just as the runway is receding over your = left=20 shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and = then=20 added a little power and that cleared it=20 up.

 

 Then managed to = bounce the=20 landing. How many landings can I log on one approach? Oh well, I guess = I'm a=20 little tailwheel rusty. And without the cowl cheeks the view over the = nose is=20 very different so I havent quite got the pitch attitude figured out=20 yet.

 

 Other impressions. = The=20 airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least not from the pilot's = seat.=20 The handling and control power still seem quite a bit better than my = RV-6A=20 (which was great). Not really clear why but most of my flying in the = -6A I had=20 someone in the right seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, = the=20 airplane flies perfectly straight.

 

 All things = considered I'm=20 real happy. This flight was considerably less stressful than the first = and I=20 actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly dont remember a lot of the = first=20 flight. Also, I took my glider data logger with me on this flight. I = havent=20 downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll know more about speeds, climb = rate,=20 etc.

 

 Dont know how you = guys feel=20 about these flight reports. Give me some feedback if you want more as = my=20 testing progresses. I know that I like reading about other's flight=20 experiences as it motivated me to keep going. After 13 years of = building I'll=20 tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed harder to get it done=20 sooner.

 

 Next flight will = have to=20 wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. Classic RV - pretty bad = shimmy on=20 the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours to=20 go!

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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