X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3074526 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:59:08 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080813135829.MMG6175.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:58:29 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.137.74]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id 1pyT1a0041cVYgg04pyTMt; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:58:27 -0400 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:59:42 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c8fd55$37d93b50$6401a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C8FD12.29B5FB50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C8FD12.29B5FB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As has been speculated on the Velocity list; it appears that there is a coating of the underlying epoxy on the Jeffco fakes in Chris's tanks; so = we don't know that the problem is with the Jeffco. The underlying epoxy is EZpoxy. It has also been speculated that the auto fuel may have leaked through a pinhole in the Jeffco and then damaged the EZpoxy. I = emphasize the 'speculated', since that's all it is at this point. =20 Here is my comment regarding EZpoxy and auto fuel: =20 "I can't offer anything additional as cause, but I wouldn't hasten to = put the blame on the use of auto fuel. There is no evidence that I am aware = of that EZ poxy; when properly mixed and cured, has any incompatibility = with the fuel. There are EZ flyers that have used auto fuels for 15 years without problems. =20 =20 I've had auto fuel in my tanks for 6 years, and haven't noted any = evidence of damage to the epoxy. I did have a few pin-hole leaks on the inner = skins, and then found that the fuel had wicked through the glass plys in the = skins that had not been completely wetted out at the factory. I attributed = those leaks to me not being thorough enough in coating the very porous skins = on the strakes as delivered. There is an EZ flyer (Perry Mick) in Oregon = who has used fuel with 10% ethanol for years without an issue. =20 The caveat, of course, is perhaps the issue that Joe raised about the = proper mixing of epoxy used. =20 Back when I was finishing my strakes - I guess about 9 years ago = (yikes!) I talked with the folks that made both EZ-poxy and Jeffco. The issue of = good bonding of one to the other did come up, and the uncertainty of the = coating adherence was enough for me to decide against it. That apparently = changed later." =20 FWIW, =20 Al G =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder =20 Chris,=20 My heart sank when I saw those pictures. I have been concerned about = my plane having the same problem. Florida has gone to all 10% ethanol all = over the state, so pure gas is not available. I need to fill my tanks in = order to calibrate the gages but the gas will be in the tanks for a long time. Probably till I fly. =20 My tanks were sealed with ProSeal and I really don't know how resistant = it might be to ethanol.. Have you had any ethanol in your tanks?=20 =20 I hate to fill the tanks with av gas because of the plug fowling = problems, but I would REALLY hate to be facing your problem. =20 Bill B =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running = better each day before this fuel issue developed. As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned = color and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard = to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the = fuel was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. = Since the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point = seemed a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same time = I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days.=20 I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, = I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel = leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could = either go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in = the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the = strake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the = outside. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the = leak. EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the = top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost all = the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky and = not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had also = fallen off. I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue = before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was there too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the = Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was = applied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake = is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate = step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal = it with more Jeffco. I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to = fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't = trust any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did this part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the = buckets was a bad batch. Donno. I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are = four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and = three on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). = The inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as = I would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching = my ailerons after balancing them.=20 =20 So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the = problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when the fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on = a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory = asked me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are = blurry, don't worry, it is only my tears...... =20 The link to pictures is http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569 &posted=3D1#post25569 All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C8FD12.29B5FB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As has been speculated on the = Velocity list; it = appears that there is a coating of the underlying epoxy on the Jeffco fakes in = Chris’s tanks; so we don’t know that the problem is with the Jeffco. =  The underlying epoxy is EZpoxy.  It has also been speculated that the = auto fuel may have leaked through a pinhole in the Jeffco and then damaged the = EZpoxy.  I emphasize the ‘speculated’, since that’s all it is = at this point.

 

Here is my comment regarding = EZpoxy and auto fuel:

 

“I can’t offer = anything additional as cause, but I wouldn’t hasten to put the blame on the = use of auto fuel.  There is no evidence that I am aware of that EZ poxy; = when properly mixed and cured, has any incompatibility with the fuel.  = There are EZ flyers that have used auto fuels for 15 years without = problems. 

 

I’ve had auto fuel in my = tanks for 6 years, and haven’t noted any evidence of damage to the = epoxy.  I did have a few pin-hole leaks on the inner skins, and then found that = the fuel had wicked through the glass plys in the skins that had not been = completely wetted out at the factory. I attributed those leaks to me not being = thorough enough in coating the very porous skins on the strakes as delivered. = There is an EZ flyer (Perry Mick) in Oregon who has used fuel with 10% ethanol for years without an = issue.

 

The caveat, of course, is perhaps = the issue that Joe raised about the proper mixing of epoxy = used.

 

Back when I was finishing my = strakes – I guess about 9 years ago (yikes!) I talked with the folks that = made both EZ-poxy and Jeffco.  The issue of good bonding of one to the = other did come up, and the uncertainty of the coating adherence was enough for = me to decide against it.  That apparently changed = later.”

 

FWIW,

 

Al G

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, = 2008 8:33 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

 

Chris,

My heart sank when I saw those = pictures.   I have been concerned about my plane having the same problem.  = Florida has gone to all 10% ethanol all over the state, so pure gas is not = available.  I need to fill my tanks in order to calibrate the gages but the gas will = be in the tanks for a long time.  Probably till I fly.  =

My tanks were sealed with ProSeal and I = really don’t know how resistant it might be to ethanol..  Have you = had any ethanol in your tanks? 

 

I hate to fill the tanks with av gas because = of  the plug fowling problems, but I would REALLY hate to be facing your = problem.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, August 11, = 2008 10:29 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

Well, this was the worst = builder day I have had. That includes the day I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running better each day before this fuel issue developed.

As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on to = the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my = original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color and = became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked.

I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard = to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was = having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fuel = was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Since = the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans years = ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were installed = with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same = time I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and = installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days.

I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, = I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel leak = though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could either go into = the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in the top of the = strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the strake as I thought = it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the outside. So, I cut a = hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the = top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost all = the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky and = not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had also = fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue = before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was there too. = We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not a = complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco, I mixed = it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was applied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate = step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal it = with more Jeffco.

I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to = fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my = understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't trust any of it = now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did this part of the = build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the buckets was a bad batch. = Donno.

I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and = three on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). The inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing = with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I = would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching my ailerons = after balancing them.

 

So, it seems many of those = other fuel issue may have not been the problem I thought they were....this = does seem to be the cause for when the fire department came out as that leak just = seem to happen.  When I pressure tested this system a few years back, all = seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on = a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory asked = me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a = isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a bigger = problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blurry, don't = worry, it is only my tears......

 

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