X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.195] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTPS id 2792236 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:56:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.195; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d211-31-127-254.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.31.127.254]) by mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m2ENtXI1001371 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:55:35 +1100 Message-ID: <001601c8862e$e6053e20$fe7f1fd3@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:55:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C88682.B64477B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C88682.B64477B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, I found the whole exercise very educational - especially in regard to = cross section dimensions and how O-ring actually work in the grooves. = Pity we didn't have something who haven't been through the educational = process. George (down under)=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Various Possible solutions to coolant in = housing Lynn and All, While researching and sourcing the proper size of "TES" = coolent "O" rings from "Creavey" (both for length and cross section) a couple of years ago I shipped a 13B side housing to them for proper sizing. Just from my own measurments I had thought the outer coolent might require a slightly larger cross section "O" ring but I was wrong and Jeff Chrysler of "Creavey" (who was very helpful) straightened me out.=20 Attached is the E mail to "Creavey" when I ordered enough "O"=20 rings for two 13B engines. The proper sizes for both of the coolent seals and also for the rotor oil seals if you are so inclined. Also I = was corrosponding with George (down under) at the time so included one of our E mails with the "TES" seal prices at the time. Mark Steitle is currently flying Creavy coolent seals and Chuck Dunlap is the only one I know of using the "TES" rotor oil seals (at least the last I heard)..........FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer) Save Address = Reminder =20 =20 To: "Jeff Chrysler" =20 Subject: Re: FW: Rotary Engine Coolent Seals=20 Date: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:25:32 AM [View Source] =20 =20 =20 Jeff, That is welcome news.......Apparently from all reports from = users the following are the correct sizes for the smaller oil seal rings: The proper oil O-ring sizes are: 0.093" section 4.68 inch ID 0.118" section 4.33 inch ID The coolent O-ring sizes are: 0.093" section 11.190 ID 0.093" section 8.950 ID I would like to order enough for two engines........This will = be eight of each size........I want them all to be of the high temp = Teflon........Please give me the price quote and I will call you with payment info for the = O-rings and shiping of the housing back to me........One question, I presume the = 0.098 was to big for the inner coolent ring even though the groove is larger than = the outer coolent groove......... Was the major deciding factor on the = section size seal expansion with heat or just too much section size for the groove = area ?? Jeff thanks so much, Kelly Troyer =20 =20 From: keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer) Save Address = Reminder =20 =20 To: lendich@optusnet.com.au (George Lendich)=20 Subject: TES O-rings =20 Date: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:15:20 PM [View Source] =20 =20 =20 George, Received my housing and O-rings today.........O-rings look = good........Will try to send photo of coolent O-rings in the housing when I = can.......In addition to the coolent rings I ordered Jeff sent the test rings that were = the proper size sitting in their respective grooves.........I purchased enough = rings for two engines........You probably already have this info but again = here are the proper sizes and prices (U.S.).......All prices are for the PFA high = temp Teflon.......The lower temp Teflon would probably be adequate for the large outer = coolent=20 seal and would save a U.S. dolar or so per seal........ =20 The Rotor Oil Seal O-ring sizes are: =20 PFA-SIL 0.093" section 4.680 inch ID $4.59 each PFA-SIL 0.118" section 4.330 inch ID $4.47 " =20 The Coolent O-ring sizes are: =20 PFA-SIL 0.093" section 11.190 inch ID $8.33 " PFA-SIL 0.093" section 8.950 inch ID $6.60 " Best Regards, -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 =20 -------------- Original message from Lehanover@aol.com: = --------------=20 In some situations, Japanese companies are very slow, or find it = impossible to correct, mistakes that would have been obvious to a first = year engineering student. If the last name of the idiot that has = suggested the change is a socially prominent one, they will go to great = lengths to avoid shame from falling on such a person no matter how = deserving he may be. One of my drivers is the test driver instructors at = the Transportation Research Center in West Liberty Ohio. Each Japanese = engineer who will serve an internship in one of the Ohio Honda car = plants will pass a very advanced test engineering drivers course, = including vehicle dynamics and actual driving skills and data recovery = in a collection of vehicles that most of the engineers have never seen = up close. My favorite is a real L88 powered circle track car. Big = slicks, enough power to light the rear tires anywhere, and the ability = to spin like a top. It is fully adjustable and each day they all get to = change something on it and spend the day testing the change. Each = engineer writes up whatever he thinks the change caused and why. Then = they are graded by American engineers, and their driving is graded by = Roger Schroer the driving instructor. My current driver Terry Whitlock = and I went out there to evaluate the new car and give them some ideas as = to how it could be made more effective for this use. The Honda home team had laid out the rules, and one of them is that, = if a student spun any of the test cars, he sat out for a year and took = the course over the next year. Myself and all of the Americans and some = of the home team protested saying the opposite. Every driver should = stress the car to the limit and beyond.=20 I know you can drive. I want to see you drive at the limit while = thinking about vehicle dynamics and staying on the road course. So the = rules got changed. Nobody has committed suicide (yet). The race car has = never been damaged, but has spun many times. Often a little person will = climb out of that car with a big smile. who has never smiled at work before. There are 200 channels of data stream going for each student, and = the American engineers and Roger know in real time about anything that = may have happened. Honda turns out car engineers who know their = vehicles. They test drive prototypes of new cars or new ideas built into = older chassis every day. Here and back in Japan. The list to go to = America and take this course is a long one. Even Honda had this problem = of not telling anyone that we looked at your idea and the engineers all = had a great laugh over it, before rejecting it. They just see themselves in the same position bringing shame to = their parents and relatives. But not all companies have come along as = far as Honda. Roger is the fastest by a full second, I am second and the = current driver is third by a hair. The car has improved much since then = and will now turn right without slowing to a crawl. If you want a great = car buy a Honda.................Made in the USA by Americans. Mazda got the idea that machining the "O" ring grooves in the irons = rather than the aluminum rotor housings would improve something or reduce a cost some how. What the thinking = was I don't know. But the failure rate of iron casting cracking out was = noticeable right from the gitgo. So how could this have happened? What = would be a perfectly good way to fix this production problem and move = on? And certainly not keep making the same failing pieces year in and = year out. pissing off the tiny collection of motor heads who would stoop = to buying your product to begin with. But there it was many years of the very same product, with the very = same problem. The irons are sand castings. So there are several sets of = permanent sand mold patterns mounted in molding machines somewhere = pressing these pieces into the face of a mold box like a machine gun.=20 In the US, this problem probably would not have happened. It looks = to me like the grooves in the iron idea was not washed through any = system to detect the possible outcomes available. So a staff of = engineers would have had a sample of the irons cut through the ring = groove to look at and measure. Bingo, the groove does not meet the = minimum dimensions for a high pressure ring in iron. Too thin along the = back of the curve here. Engineering magic? Hardly. Common sense. Reading a book. Reviewing the possible = outcome. Avoiding loosing your job. Give this to the two trainees for two days and ask them for a report = showing at least 4 fixes and watch them run the engineering library. = Over in the foundry the chief engineer confers with the foundry master = and makes a pen and ink change in the red line production drawing. The = line is shut down the several steel patterns are removed and taken to = the die maker who studies the drawing for a few seconds and calls in the = welder, who lays a bead along the outside of the problem area on each = pattern. The die maker smoothes each weld bead with his die grinder and = right after lunch all 4 patterns are again pounding out perfect and much = improved molds for a product you would love to have.=20 Apparently not the case in Japan. I have never built an engine with the grooves in the iron. But I = have read about the problem for years, and notice that the Renesis has = the grooves in the rotor housings where God intended them to be in the = first place. Their excuse to change the location without bringing shame = to somebodys grandson? With this known weakness, I would not use anything but the stock = compression "O" rings. It is easy to pop off a piece of the iron outer = wall when the groove fills up and hydrauics when the stack is torqued = up. There are some folks who swear by some after market rings that may = fit in the grooves. Before I do that I will saw an iron in two and lay a = piece of flat steel across the groove with a piece of the proposed "O" = ring material, to determine if there is room for it in the groove. There = should be room left over after the groove is clamped shut. More typically, the ring must be allowed to move a bit to pile up = against the far wall under the pressure being retained to work at all. = Most of the rules for "O" ring grooves are in any "O" ring catalog. I would be tempted to reduce the flat surface of the iron along the = outboard wall of the groove to eliminate clamping pressure completely. = Add a strip of sealant then to protect this area from coolant. Many of = these things must fail when the stack is torqued up the first time. I would also be using a hint of sealant in the ring groove. The ring = is not sealing against the several hundred pounds of flaming fuel in the = engine. The flat surfaces with tons of pressure on them must do that. = Any pressure that would escape into the seal groove just forces the ring = against the outboard wall, and there it stays. Sealing out the water for = the most part. In fact I used several hundred feet of 18 Gage Teflon = coated silver tinned airplane wire for that "O" ring, and never had a = leak. My friend Bill Koch has used Chinese 18 gage hook up wire (crap) = and it worked fine. Just ad a very small amount of sealant, along with = the wire. Not for aircraft use of course. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 3/14/2008 3:54:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = lendich@optusnet.com.au writes: Chris, Lynn is the expert in these things, but I was under the impression = that the end housing grooves had to show signs of cracking before the = seal would allow leaks. The seals, seal at the top and bottom of the = seal, the sides of the grooves merely restrict the seal from moving from = it's predetermined place. For instance a seal groove slot would need to = loose a piece from the thin side ( water jacket side) to allow the seal = to move and allow water in. That has been my take on it anyway. The reason Mazda went back to water jacket seals in the rotor = housings like in the 12A, is because the steel liner is sturdier than = the thin wall in the cast iron end housings and there is less chance of = this happening. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1329 - Release Date: = 14/03/2008 12:33 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C88682.B64477B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
I found the whole exercise very = educational -=20 especially in regard to cross section dimensions and how O-ring actually = work in=20 the grooves. Pity we didn't have something who haven't been through the=20 educational process.
George (down under) 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 = 9:31=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Various Possible=20 solutions to coolant in housing

  Lynn and All,
         While = researching and=20 sourcing the proper size of "TES" coolent
"O" rings from "Creavey" (both for length and cross section) a=20 couple
of years ago I shipped a 13B side housing  to them for = proper=20 sizing.
 
        Just from my own = measurments I=20 had thought the outer coolent
might require a slightly larger cross section "O" ring but I was=20 wrong
and Jeff Chrysler of "Creavey" (who was very helpful) = straightened=20 me
out.
 
       Attached is the E mail to = "Creavey"=20 when I ordered enough "O"
rings for two 13B engines. The proper sizes for both of=20 the coolent
seals and also for the rotor oil seals if you are so inclined. = Also I=20 was
corrosponding with George (down under) at the time so = included
one of our E mails with the "TES" seal prices at the time.
 
       Mark Steitle is currently = flying=20 Creavy coolent seals and Chuck
Dunlap is the only one I know of using the "TES" rotor oil=20 seals (at
least the last I heard)..........FWIW
 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY = Engine=20
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =

From:   
keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer)     Save Address     3D""=20 Reminder    
To:    "Jeff Chrysler" = <jeff@creavey.com>
Subject:    Re: FW: Rotary Engine Coolent Seals
Date:    Friday, August 05, = 2005 11:25:32=20 AM   [View Source]

3D""=20

Jeff,
   That is welcome news.......Apparently from all = reports=20 from users the following
are the correct sizes for the smaller oil seal rings:
 
      The proper oil O-ring sizes=20 are:
      0.093" section 4.68 = inch=20 ID
      0.118" section 4.33 inch = ID
 
     The coolent O-ring sizes = are:
 
      0.093" section 11.190 = ID
      0.093" section  =  8.950=20 ID
 
   I would like to order enough for two=20 engines........This will be eight of each
size........I want them all to be of the high temp=20 Teflon........Please give me the
price quote and I will call you with payment info for the = O-rings=20 and shiping
of the housing back to me........One question, I presume = the 0.098=20 was to big
for the inner coolent ring even though the groove is larger = than=20 the outer
coolent groove......... Was the major deciding factor = on the=20 section size seal
expansion with heat or just too much section size for the = groove=20 area ??
 
  Jeff thanks so much,
 
  Kelly = Troyer 
 
3D"" 3D""=20 3D""=20
From:   
keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer)     Save Address     3D""=20 Reminder    
To:    lendich@optusnet.com.au (George = Lendich)
Subject:    TES O-rings
Date:    Monday, August 29, = 2005 5:15:20=20 PM   [View Source]

3D""=20

George,
   Received my housing and O-rings = today.........O-rings=20 look good........Will try
to send photo of coolent O-rings in the housing when I = can.......In=20 addition to
the coolent rings I ordered Jeff sent the = test rings that=20 were the proper size
sitting in their respective grooves.........I purchased = enough=20 rings for two
engines........You probably already have this info but = again here=20 are the proper
sizes and prices (U.S.).......All prices are for the PFA = high temp=20 Teflon.......The
lower temp Teflon would probably be adequate for the large = outer=20 coolent
seal and would save a U.S. dolar or so per = seal........
 
       
        The = Rotor Oil=20 Seal O-ring  sizes are:
 

      PFA-SIL  =20 0.093" section  4.680 inch ID  $4.59=20 each
     =  PFA-SIL  =20 0.118" section  4.330 inch ID  $4.47  =20 "

 

      The = Coolent=20 O-ring sizes are:

 

     =20 PFA-SIL   0.093" section 11.190 inch ID =20 $8.33   "

    =20  PFA-SIL   0.093" section   8.950=20 inch ID=20  $6.60   "

 

 

 

Best = Regards,

--
Kelly = Troyer=20
Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from Lehanover@aol.com: --------------

In some situations, Japanese companies are very slow, or find = it=20 impossible to correct, mistakes that would have been obvious to a = first year=20 engineering student. If the last name of the idiot that has=20 suggested the change is a socially prominent one, they will go = to great=20 lengths to avoid shame from falling on such a person no matter how = deserving=20 he may be. One of my drivers is the test driver instructors at the=20 Transportation Research Center in West Liberty Ohio. Each Japanese = engineer=20 who will serve an internship in one of the Ohio Honda car plants = will pass a=20 very advanced test engineering drivers course, including vehicle = dynamics=20 and actual driving skills and data recovery in a collection of = vehicles that=20 most of the engineers have never seen up close. My favorite is a = real L88=20 powered circle track car. Big slicks, enough power to light the rear = tires=20 anywhere, and the ability to spin like a top. It is fully adjustable = and=20 each day they all get to change something on it and spend the day = testing=20 the change. Each engineer writes up whatever he thinks the change = caused and=20 why. Then they are graded by American engineers, and their driving = is graded=20 by Roger Schroer the driving instructor. My current driver Terry = Whitlock=20 and I went out there to evaluate the new car and give them some = ideas as to=20 how it could be made more effective for this use.
 
The Honda home team had laid out the rules, and one of them is = that, if=20 a student spun any of the test cars, he sat out for a year and took = the=20 course over the next year. Myself and all of the Americans and some = of the=20 home team protested saying the opposite. Every driver should stress = the car=20 to the limit and beyond.
 
I know you can drive. I want to see you drive at the limit = while=20 thinking about vehicle dynamics and staying on the road course. So = the rules=20 got changed. Nobody has committed suicide (yet). The race car has = never been=20 damaged, but has spun many times. Often a little person will climb = out of=20 that car with a big smile.
who has never smiled at work before.
There are 200 channels of data stream going for each student, = and the=20 American engineers and Roger know in real time about anything that = may have=20 happened. Honda turns out car engineers who know their vehicles. = They test=20 drive prototypes of new cars or new ideas built into older chassis = every=20 day. Here and back in Japan. The list to go to America and take this = course=20 is a long one.  Even Honda had this problem of not telling = anyone=20 that we looked at your idea and the engineers all had a great laugh = over it,=20 before rejecting it.
They just see themselves in the same position bringing shame to = their=20 parents and relatives. But not all companies have come along as far = as=20 Honda. Roger is the fastest by a full second, I am second and the = current=20 driver is third by a hair. The car has improved much since then and = will now=20 turn right without slowing to a crawl. If you want a great car buy a = Honda.................Made in the USA by Americans.
 
Mazda got the idea that machining the "O" ring grooves in the = irons=20 rather than the aluminum rotor housings
would improve something or reduce a cost some how. What the = thinking=20 was I don't know. But the failure rate of iron casting cracking out = was=20 noticeable right from the gitgo. So how could this have happened? = What would=20 be a perfectly good way to fix this production problem and move on? = And=20 certainly not keep making the same failing pieces year in and year = out.=20 pissing off the tiny collection of motor heads who would stoop to = buying=20 your product to begin with.
 
But there it was many years of the very same product, with the = very=20 same problem. The irons are sand castings. So there are several sets = of=20 permanent sand mold patterns mounted in molding machines = somewhere=20 pressing these pieces into the face of a mold box like a machine = gun.
 
In the US, this problem probably would not have happened. It = looks to=20 me like the grooves in the iron idea was not washed through any = system to=20 detect the possible outcomes available. So a staff of engineers = would have=20 had a sample of the irons cut through the ring groove to look at and = measure. Bingo, the groove does not meet the minimum  = dimensions for a=20 high pressure ring in iron. Too thin along the back of the curve = here.=20 Engineering magic?
Hardly. Common sense. Reading a book. Reviewing the possible = outcome.=20 Avoiding loosing your job.
Give this to the two trainees for two days and ask them for a = report=20 showing at least 4 fixes and watch them run the  engineering=20 library. Over in the foundry the chief engineer confers with = the=20 foundry master and makes a pen and ink change in the red line = production=20 drawing. The line is shut down the several steel patterns are = removed=20 and taken to the die maker who studies the drawing for a few seconds = and=20 calls in the welder, who lays a bead along the outside of the = problem area=20 on each pattern. The die maker smoothes each weld bead with his die = grinder=20 and right after lunch all 4 patterns are again pounding out perfect = and much=20 improved molds for a product you would love to have.
 
Apparently not the case in Japan.
 
I have never built an engine with the grooves in the iron. But = I have=20 read about the problem for years, and notice that the Renesis has = the=20 grooves in the rotor housings where God intended them to be in the = first=20 place. Their excuse to change the location without bringing shame to = somebodys grandson?
 
With this known weakness, I would not use anything but the = stock=20 compression "O" rings. It is easy to pop off a piece of the iron = outer wall=20 when the groove fills up and hydrauics when the stack is torqued up. = There=20 are some folks who swear by some after market rings that may fit in = the=20 grooves. Before I do that I will saw an iron in two and lay a piece = of flat=20 steel across the groove with a piece of the proposed "O" ring = material, to=20 determine if there is room for it in the groove. There should = be room=20 left over after the groove is clamped shut.
More typically, the ring must be allowed to move a bit to pile = up=20 against the far wall under the pressure being retained to work at = all. Most=20 of the rules for "O" ring grooves are in any "O" ring catalog.
 
I would be tempted to reduce the flat surface of the iron along = the=20 outboard wall of the groove to eliminate clamping pressure = completely.=20 Add a strip of sealant then to protect this area from coolant. =  Many of=20 these things must fail when the stack is torqued up the first = time.
I would also be using a hint of sealant in the ring groove. The = ring is=20 not sealing against the several hundred pounds of flaming fuel in = the=20 engine. The flat surfaces with tons of pressure on them must do = that. Any=20 pressure that would escape into the seal groove just forces the ring = against=20 the outboard wall, and there it stays. Sealing out the water for the = most=20 part. In fact I used several hundred feet of 18 Gage Teflon coated = silver=20 tinned airplane wire for that "O" ring, and never had a leak. My = friend Bill=20 Koch has used Chinese 18 gage hook up wire (crap) and it worked = fine. Just=20 ad a very small amount of sealant, along with the wire.
Not for aircraft use of course.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
In a message dated 3/14/2008 3:54:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight = Time,=20 lendich@optusnet.com.au writes:
Chris,
Lynn is the expert in these = things, but I was=20 under the impression that the end housing grooves had to show = signs of=20 cracking before the seal would allow leaks. The seals, seal at the = top and=20 bottom of the seal, the sides of the grooves merely restrict the = seal from=20 moving from it's predetermined place. For instance a seal groove = slot=20 would need to loose a piece from the thin side ( water jacket = side) to=20 allow the seal to move and allow water in. That has been my take = on it=20 anyway.
The  reason Mazda went back = to water=20 jacket seals in the rotor housings like in the 12A, is because the = steel=20 liner is sturdier than the thin wall in the cast iron end housings = and=20 there is less chance of this=20 happening.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.=20
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1329 - Release Date:=20 14/03/2008 12:33 PM
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C88682.B64477B0--