X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from defout.telus.net ([199.185.220.240] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 2791869 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:41:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.240; envelope-from=tomk@telus.net Received: from priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net ([207.216.205.78]) by priv-edtnes25.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.02 201-2186-121-104-20070414) with ESMTP id <20080314184058.SSZG10126.priv-edtnes25.telusplanet.net@priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net> for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:40:58 -0600 Received: from familygr7vkfo2 (d207-216-205-78.bchsia.telus.net [207.216.205.78]) by priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net (BorderWare MXtreme Infinity Mail Firewall) with SMTP id 6FPA277SL3 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:41:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <010901c88602$fdb14950$6401a8c0@familygr7vkfo2> From: "Tom-Lynn Koftinoff" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:41:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0106_01C885C8.50E00070" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C885C8.50E00070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am probably way off on a tangent with what follows, but here is my two = cents. After installing my '88, 13B (non turbo) in the '86 RX-7 car = for testing, I decided to tear apart the '86, 13B engine that was = originally in the car. The owner of the '86, 13B told me he had ran it = out of coolant and severely over heated the engine. When I originally = brought the car home, I started it, and it ran but the exhaust created a = white smoke screen behind the car. I examined the oil, and it was = mixed with water from the radiator. I only paid $100.00 for the car, so = I wasn't concerned. As I began tearing the '86, 13B engine apart (last = summer), I notice the paint in the oil pan was all bubbled up and = flaking off from being over heating. After removing the outside rear = side housing, I found one inch of the outside( near the bottom of the = end housing - by the hot oil) O-ring wall and O-ring were broken. In = this case (probably a classic example), it was obvious where the coolant = was leaking from. However, when I was examining the intermediate = housing I came across what looked like a loose piece of cast, inside the = cavity of the end housing, (looking inside the housing on an angle from = a top view). I am still not sure if it is cast plug that is put in = during manufacturing or it is a piece of cast that worked its way out = after being subjected to moisture, cold/hot temperatures etc. The = purpose of this cast wall appears to separate coolant from the oil (oil = that works its way into the intermediate end housing cavity when the = engine is running ) and then drains back into the oil pan. As I was = cleaning the intermediate housing , I put some pressure on the loose = piece of cast, and it popped out, destroying the intermediate housing; = I ended up purchasing another intermediate housing. The point I am = trying to make is you may want to examine the cavity inside the = intermediate housing for any obvious signs of cracks etc in the cast. = Probably not the same problem, if you didn't have coolant in the oil?? Later, last summer, I purchased ($250.00) another '88, 13B engine that = had lost an apex seal from the rear rotor. The previous owner had = haywired the rear barrel valve actuator in the open position (in his = '88, RX-7). I was surprised to find very little damage to the rear = rotor housing/rotor from the expelled apex seal. This engine had no = problems with coolant leakage; however, when I examined the front side = housing, one (half inch) section of the outside O-ring wall was broken, = but the O-ring was still intact, and, therefore, the engine never = developed a coolant leak. I intend to use acceptable parts from both = the '88 and '86 13B engines to build another engine for the '86 RX-7 = car, later this year. Tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing I have been inspecting and re-inspecting the plates (front, center and = rear) and the housing over the last few days...over and over with = trusted second set of eyes helping with the process. I have taken a = straight edge to the plates and with a .0015 feeler gage (the smallest I = could find...the spec is 0016 IIRC ) could not get it to even think = about going under the straight edge. The plates seem solid, straight = and in damn good shape. =20 I have taken a dental pick and "ticked" it around the oil seal grooves = and it seems solid all around. However, after viewing the Mazdatrix = website, it shows where the side of the O-ring groves may give way. = They state it is hard to diagnose but can be a way coolant gets into the = combustion chamber (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's 4 = and 5). They had to use very high pressure over an extended period to = make the bad area actually VISIBLY fail. IS THERE A WAY to determine = if these groove side walls are solid without the high pressure, long = term pressure test process....which is beyond my ability? I hate the = idea of putting these back together and continue to have a = problem......I also hate the idea of the about $400.00 ish each for new = plates :-( I really thing the side plates are ok IF these grooves are = good. Any ideas? Next, when we have meticulously inspected the housings, we seem to see = a couple of EXTREMELY slight irregularities around the edge where the = water seal would lay between it and the side seals. My buddy...a VERY = trusted resource, feels this could be enough to cause a problem. Also, = when I broke out the digital calipers I measured several places around = the housings and it seems the thickness around the diameter I am getting = is reading slightly out of spec for differences in thickness around the = housings. Is it proper or even possible to take these to a machine shop and have = them machined smooth and flat? Or is it better to just suck it up and = buy new housings? I am about a "wild hair" away from just giving in and = buying two new housing just to get going again and end all question of = them being a future problem....at least for the current reasons. I hate = the idea of throwing money at something that may be perfectly fine = (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's thoughts? As to the O-rings that came out of the engine for the inner rings = there does seem to be some roughness along a couple of areas on the = O-rings. The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are take, and seem = to be on a couple of the rings and in about the same area on the various = plates. This would seem to be indicative to over heating......Yes, = No....????? Also, the price for new housings from Pineapple Racing (558.00) does = not seem too bad (Mazdatrix are 571.78 w/ cash discount). One of the = "features" Pineapple Racing promotes on their site is that they have = "machined spark plug holes" so as to accept alternative plugs. What the = heck is this? I hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow but = what say Ye? I tend to kick around the various ideas before I decide, but as a rule = do not knee jerk react to things even though it may seem this way. I do = not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but that may be inevitable. = More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 on new side = plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least these = issues are addressed. Will love to get your opinions. TIA. All the best, Chris Velocity SE Houston ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C885C8.50E00070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am probably way off on a = tangent with=20 what follows, but here is my two cents.   After installing my = '88, 13B=20 (non turbo) in the '86 RX-7 car for testing, I decided to tear apart the = '86,=20 13B engine that was originally in the car.   The owner of the = '86, 13B=20 told me he had ran it out of coolant and severely over heated the=20 engine.   When I originally brought the car home, I = started it,=20 and it ran but the exhaust created a white smoke screen behind the=20 car.   I examined the oil, and it was mixed with = water from the=20 radiator.  I only paid $100.00 for the car, so I wasn't=20 concerned.   As I began tearing the '86, 13B engine apart = (last=20 summer), I notice the paint in the oil pan was all bubbled up and = flaking off=20 from being over heating.  After removing the outside rear side = housing, I=20 found one inch of the outside( near the bottom of the end = housing=20 - by the hot oil) O-ring wall and O-ring were = broken.   In=20 this case (probably a classic example), it was obvious where the coolant = was=20 leaking from.   However, when I was examining the intermediate = housing=20 I came across what looked like a loose piece of cast, inside the cavity = of the=20 end housing, (looking inside the housing on an angle from a top = view).  I=20 am still not sure if it is cast plug that is put in during manufacturing = or it is a piece of  cast that worked its way out after = being=20 subjected to moisture, cold/hot temperatures etc.  The purpose=20 of this cast wall appears to separate coolant from the oil = (oil that=20 works its way into the intermediate end housing cavity = when the=20 engine is running ) and then drains back into the oil pan.  As I = was=20 cleaning the intermediate housing , I put some pressure on the loose = piece of=20 cast, and it popped out, destroying the intermediate housing;  I = ended up=20 purchasing another intermediate housing.   The point I am = trying to=20 make is you may want to examine the cavity inside the intermediate = housing for=20 any obvious signs of cracks etc in the cast.   Probably not = the same=20 problem, if you didn't have coolant in the oil??
Later, last summer, I = purchased ($250.00)=20 another '88, 13B engine that had lost an apex seal from the rear=20 rotor.   The previous owner had haywired the rear barrel valve = actuator in the open position (in his '88, RX-7).   I was = surprised to=20 find very little damage to the rear rotor = housing/rotor from the=20 expelled apex seal.    This engine had no problems with = coolant=20 leakage; however, when I examined the front side housing, one (half = inch)=20 section of the outside O-ring wall was broken, but the O-ring was still = intact,=20 and, therefore, the engine never developed a coolant leak.  I = intend=20 to use acceptable parts from both the '88 and '86 13B = engines to=20 build another engine for the '86 RX-7 car, later this=20 year.
 
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Barber =
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 = 9:45=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Various = Possible=20 solutions to coolant in housing

I have been inspecting and = re-inspecting the=20 plates (front, center and rear) and the housing over the last few = days...over=20 and over with trusted second set of eyes helping with the = process.  I=20 have taken a straight edge to the plates and with a .0015 feeler=20 gage (the smallest I could find...the spec is = 0016 IIRC ) could=20 not get it to even think about going under the straight edge.  = The plates=20 seem solid, straight and in damn good shape. 
 
I have taken a dental pick and = "ticked" it around=20 the oil seal grooves and it seems solid all around.  = However, after=20 viewing the Mazdatrix website, it shows where the side of the O-ring = groves=20 may give way.  They state it is hard to diagnose but can be a way = coolant=20 gets into the combustion chamber (http://www.mazdatrix.c= om/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's=20 4 and 5). They had to use very high pressure over an extended period = to make=20 the bad area actually VISIBLY fail.  IS THERE  A WAY to = determine if=20 these groove side walls are solid without the high pressure, long term = pressure test process....which is beyond my ability?  I hate = the=20 idea of putting these back together and continue to have a = problem......I also=20 hate the idea of the about $400.00 ish each for new plates = :-(  I=20 really thing the side plates are ok IF these grooves are good.  = Any=20 ideas?
 
Next, when we have meticulously = inspected the=20 housings, we seem to see a couple of EXTREMELY slight irregularities = around=20 the edge where the water seal would lay between it and the side = seals. =20 My buddy...a VERY trusted resource, feels this could be enough to = cause a=20 problem. Also, when I broke out the digital calipers I measured = several places=20 around the housings and it seems the thickness around the diameter I = am=20 getting is reading slightly out of spec for differences in thickness = around=20 the housings.
 
Is it proper or even possible to take = these to a=20 machine shop and have them machined smooth and flat?  Or is it = better to=20 just suck it up and buy new housings?  I am about a "wild hair" = away from=20 just giving in and buying two new housing just to get going again and = end all=20 question of them being a future problem....at least for the current=20 reasons.  I hate the idea of throwing money at something that may = be=20 perfectly fine (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's=20 thoughts?
 
As to the O-rings that came out of = the engine for=20 the inner rings there does seem to be some roughness along a couple of = areas=20 on the O-rings.  The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are = take, and=20 seem to be on a couple of the rings and in about the same area on the = various=20 plates.  This would seem to be indicative to over = heating......Yes,=20 No....?????
 
Also, the price for new = housings from=20 Pineapple Racing (558.00) does not seem too bad (Mazdatrix are = 571.78 w/=20 cash discount).  One of the "features" Pineapple=20 Racing promotes on their site is that they have "machined spark = plug=20 holes" so as to accept alternative plugs.  What the heck is = this?  I=20 hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow but what say = Ye?
 
I tend to kick around the various = ideas before I=20 decide, but as a rule do not knee jerk react to things even though it = may seem=20 this way.  I do not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but = that may=20 be inevitable.  More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 = on new=20 side plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least = these=20 issues are addressed.
 
Will love to get your opinions.  = TIA.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
Velocity SE
Houston
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