X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from access.aic-fl.com ([207.30.253.2] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 2770951 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:57:36 -0500 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.30.253.2; envelope-from=unicorn@gdsys.net Received: from main (gdsi-39.gdsys.net [207.30.255.39]) by access.aic-fl.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:52:40 -0600 Message-ID: <002301c87aeb$ba1f0f00$27ff1ecf@main> From: "Richard Sohn" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Still fighting the good fight against the machine/rotary Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:57:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C87AB9.6EF99D10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C87AB9.6EF99D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, here is a few comments on the hot-start problem. I had that problem = early on with the single rotor. It turned out to be caused by two = issues, either-or, or combined. These are, low compression and slow = cranking.=20 In my first test engine, I used seals that had been laying around the = shop for years and were not matched to rotor or housings. Cold start was = never a problem. It could only be started when hot, by taking out one = plug and squirting in some oil into the combustion chamber.=20 In the next engine, everything was to spec, and the problem went = partially away. The next thing I did was using a bigger battery. this = took care of the problem altogether.=20 I demonstrated the hot start at the Rotor Meet repeatedly. Assuming that your engine is in spec condition, I would recommend = looking at the cranking power. Potential problem areas would be, battery = size, length and size of starter cable, and grounding.=20 Just my .02c, trying to help. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Still fighting the good fight against the = machine/rotary Chris,=20 Keep your spirits up, you'll get it all sorted out eventually and be a = better person in the end. As for the rough running on B, I would copy A = to B since A runs pretty well, then see how B runs. After copying, it = should run the same on B as it does on A. =20 I'm puzzled as to why it won't restart for a few hours. It may be = related to the reason it quit on the previous run. If it got too much = fuel and flooded, it may take a while until restart is possible. Have = you checked the plugs after a run to see if they're wet, fouled, etc? = If you give it a shot of gas, or WD-40 down the intake will it restart? = I think you need to determine if it is fuel or spark that prevents = restart. My guess is that it is fuel related. I'm assuming that your = alternator is charging the battery while running? If not, that could be = the problem. As I recall, the coils quit firing at about 9.5v. So, if = your battery is low and you crank the engine, the voltage drops even = lower, you won't get any spark. Just some thoughts here... Heading out to the airport today to do the latest EC-2 upgrade per = Tracy's latest email. Mark S. On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Still plodding along down here in Houston trying to develop my 13b. = It is starting up with some difficulty when I first get to the hangar = and running more smoothly as I ease my way through the auto program = routines. I spent Tuesday and Wednesday (my weekend) doing a lot of "I = gotta get back to that" tasks and made some wire connections permanent, = secured my panel (...even if fiberglass, it is a pain to work with a = floppy panel), replaced some wires (my oil temp wire was toast....thus = causing 44 degrees to read for oil temp on the EM with no change. It is = reading true now that that one pesky little wire has been replaced and = rerun. I am still having problems with Controller "B". When I switch from = A to B, the engine seems to want to stall, since the engine will not = restart for a few hours (so far) after a run I flip back to A before = this happens. At higher RPM I can make the switch between controllers = and it does not stall, but runs significantly rougher. Could this just = be due to the Auto Program refinements not yet being transferred to "B"? After my various efforts of the last few days I decided to run some = base diagnostics on the machine since I had made so many little = changes/improvements(?) over the last few days. Meaning I did the = diagnostic modes on the coils and the injectors. When I first arrived I = started the engine and started tweaking and testing. One of the test I = performed was to disable the primaries and secondary's in succession. = When I disable the secondary's I did not notice any change in the way = the engine sounded, but when I disable the primaries the engine would = start to shut down...so I quickly flipped the switch back up to the on = position to avoid the shut down. I did this a few more times over the = next couple of minutes with the same results. Hmmmmm. Anyway, I = decided to put this to the side for a moment and I pushed the throttle = to WOT. WOW, the temps rose pretty darn quickly at full = throttle.....the temps were staying around 150 ish at idle and the lower = RPM, but really soared at full tilt. The displayed RPM on the EM are = still jumping all over the place since I have not addressed this issue = as of yet....flickers from 2000, to 4800, to 1200 back to 2000, to 4900 = ish with a few numbers in what I think in the correct range = predominating the various numbers. I was a bit disappointed that the = highest number I saw with WOT was only about 4999 ish. Seems low. Is = the fact the engine only has a few hours on it and or is still not = tweaked a reason for this, or is this expected sitting half in, half out = of the hangar....yeah, the prop bit is outside in the sunshine ? Finally, for tonight anyway, back to the injectors. After my data = gathering run was complete I went to the diagnostic mode on the ECU. = When I tested the injectors as if they were firing at 3000 rpm I disable = the primaries and could clearly hear the secondary's clicking away from = inside the cabin. When I disabled the secondary's I couldn't hear = anything until I stuck my head outside the cabin. When I went around to = the engine I could clearly hear the primaries clicking away, but at a = MUCH reduced volume of the secondary's. Does this matter. Do the two = different types have this significant of a sound difference? Could this = explain the about mentioned shutting down with the injectors were turned = off during the engine run? As always guys, thanks for your kind considerations. As I have = mentioned before all commentary is welcome. I am not insulted by the = most basic suggestions and observations. I am way to close to it at = times to notice the obvious but open enough to learn what I didn't even = know I didn't know. Eventually I may get over the sensation that every time I run the = thing, let alone run it at high RPM, that I am doing some great harm as = opposed to just be pleased and amazed that this engine Dave Staten and I = built actually runs at all. Like my messy and cluttered hangar....these messy and cluttered = emails are signs of PROGRESS (yeah, that's it) All the best, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: = 2/27/2008 4:34 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C87AB9.6EF99D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
here is a few comments on the hot-start = problem. I=20 had that problem early on with the single rotor. It turned out to be = caused by=20 two issues, either-or, or combined. These are, low compression and slow=20 cranking.
In my first test engine, I used seals = that had been=20 laying around the shop for years and were not matched to rotor or = housings. Cold=20 start was never a problem. It could only be started when hot, by taking = out one=20 plug and squirting in some oil into the combustion chamber. =
In the next engine, everything was to = spec, and the=20 problem went partially away. The next thing I did was using a bigger = battery.=20 this took care of the problem altogether.
I demonstrated the hot start at the = Rotor Meet=20 repeatedly.
 
Assuming that your engine is in spec = condition, I=20 would recommend looking at the cranking power. Potential problem areas = would be,=20 battery size, length and size of starter cable, and grounding. =
 
Just my .02c,  trying to = help.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 = 7:57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Still = fighting=20 the good fight against the machine/rotary

Chris,
Keep your spirits up, you'll get it all = sorted out=20 eventually and be a better person in the end.  As for the rough = running=20 on B, I would copy A to B since A runs pretty well, then see how B = runs. =20 After copying, it should run the same on B as it does on A.  =

I'm=20 puzzled as to why it won't restart for a few hours.  It may be = related to=20 the reason it quit on the previous run.  If it got too much fuel = and=20 flooded, it may take a while until restart is possible.  Have you = checked=20 the plugs after a run to see if they're wet, fouled, etc?  If you = give it=20 a shot of gas, or WD-40 down the intake will it restart?  I think = you=20 need to determine if it is fuel or spark that prevents restart.  = My guess=20 is that it is fuel related.  I'm assuming that your alternator is = charging the battery while running?  If not, that could be the=20 problem.  As I recall, the coils quit firing at about 9.5v.  = So, if=20 your battery is low and you crank the engine, the voltage drops even = lower,=20 you won't get any spark.  Just some thoughts = here...

Heading out=20 to the airport today to do the latest EC-2 upgrade per Tracy's latest=20 email.

Mark S.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Christopher = Barber=20 <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
Still plodding along down here in = Houston=20 trying to develop my 13b.  It is starting up with some = difficulty when=20 I first get to the hangar and running more smoothly as I ease my way = through=20 the auto program routines.  I spent Tuesday and Wednesday (my = weekend)=20 doing a lot of "I gotta get back to that" tasks and made some wire=20 connections permanent, secured my panel <g>(...even if = fiberglass, it=20 is a pain to work with a floppy panel), replaced some wires (my = oil=20 temp wire was toast....thus causing 44 degrees to read for oil = temp on=20 the EM with no change.  It is reading true now that that one = pesky=20 little wire has been replaced and rerun.
 
I am still having problems with = Controller=20 "B".  When I switch from A to B, the engine seems to want to = stall,=20 since the engine will not restart for a few hours (so far) after a = run I=20 flip back to A before this happens.  At higher RPM I can make = the=20 switch between controllers and it does not stall, but runs = significantly=20 rougher.  Could this just be due to the Auto Program = refinements not=20 yet being transferred to "B"?
 
After my various efforts of the = last few days I=20 decided to run some base diagnostics on the machine since I had made = so many=20 little changes/improvements(?) over the last few days.  Meaning = I did=20 the diagnostic modes on the coils and the injectors.  When I = first=20 arrived I started the engine and started tweaking and testing.  = One of=20 the test I performed was to disable the primaries and secondary's in = succession.  When I disable the secondary's I did not notice = any change=20 in the way the engine sounded, but when I disable the primaries the = engine=20 would start to shut down...so I quickly flipped the switch back up = to the on=20 position to avoid the shut down.  I did this a few more times = over the=20 next couple of minutes with the same results.  Hmmmmm.  = Anyway, I=20 decided to put this to the side for a moment and I pushed the = throttle to=20 WOT.  WOW, the temps rose pretty darn quickly at full = throttle.....the=20 temps were staying around 150 ish at idle and the lower RPM, but = really=20 soared at full tilt.  The displayed RPM on the EM are still = jumping all=20 over the place since I have not addressed this issue as of = yet....flickers=20 from 2000, to 4800, to 1200 back to 2000, to 4900 ish with a few = numbers in=20 what I think in the correct range predominating the various = numbers.  I=20 was a bit disappointed that the highest number I saw with WOT was = only about=20 4999 ish.  Seems low.  Is the fact the engine only has a = few hours=20 on it and or is still not tweaked a reason for this, or is this = expected=20 sitting half in, half out of the hangar....yeah, the prop bit is = outside in=20 the sunshine <g>?
 
Finally, for tonight anyway, back = to the=20 injectors.  After my data gathering run was complete I went to = the=20 diagnostic mode on the ECU.  When I tested the injectors as if = they=20 were firing at 3000 rpm I disable the primaries and could clearly = hear the=20 secondary's clicking away from inside the cabin.  When I = disabled the=20 secondary's I couldn't hear anything until I stuck my head outside = the=20 cabin.  When I went around to the engine I could clearly hear = the=20 primaries clicking away, but at a MUCH reduced volume of the=20 secondary's.  Does this matter.  Do the two different = types have=20 this significant of a sound difference?  Could this explain the = about=20 mentioned shutting down with the injectors were turned off during = the engine=20 run?
 
As always guys, thanks for your = kind=20 considerations.  As I have mentioned before all commentary is=20 welcome.  I am not insulted by the most basic suggestions and=20 observations.  I am way to close to it at times to notice the = obvious=20 but open enough to learn what I didn't even know I didn't = know.
 
Eventually I may get over the = sensation that=20 every time I run the thing, let alone run it at high RPM, that I am = doing=20 some great harm as opposed to just be pleased and amazed that this = engine=20 Dave Staten and I built actually runs at all.
 
Like my messy and cluttered = hangar....these=20 messy and cluttered emails are signs of PROGRESS (yeah, that's=20 it)
 
All the best,
 
Chris

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - = Release Date:=20 2/27/2008 4:34 PM
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C87AB9.6EF99D10--