X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost03.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 2756008 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:15:17 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.53; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from fwebmail01.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.151]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc03) with SMTP id <20080225041438H0300i1rlhe>; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:14:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.115.11.151] Received: from [4.244.84.115] by fwebmail01.isp.att.net; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:14:37 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Musings, Curiosities and Frustrations RE: My rotary install Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:14:37 +0000 Message-Id: <022520080414.27813.47C240AB000D639300006CA522218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2007) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27813_1203912877_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27813_1203912877_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, Make sure your redrive drain/return line is doing its job and not causing a high lube level and pressure buildup internally.........Return line should be above full lube level in oil sump........... -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from "Bill Schertz" : -------------- On the EM reading getting erratic, it may be noise pickup on the tach signal. On the heating, when a car is idling, there is very little load. If you stay stationary and rev the engine, there is STILL very little load, while on the plane, the prop applies increasing load with rpm even if standing still. Imagine what the car would do, pulling heavy load at very low speed -- i.e. climbing a very steep gradient where it can only go 5mph with the engine revving -- like going up a mountain -- cars often overheat under those conditions. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS (reserved) ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 9:29 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Musings, Curiosities and Frustrations RE: My rotary install I received my EC2/EM back from Tracy a week or so again and got it all installed (luckily my EC2 is in an easy access location on the cabin side firewall of my Velocity). After messin' with stuff and holding my tongue just right I have gotten my engine to fire up and run. Thank heavens, but now I have some questions for the collective regarding its running and some issues I am unsure about. First, it seems if the stars are all aligned just right and Taurus is in sync with Venus, I have gotten the engine to start my last three trips to the hangar, however, I have not been able to get it to RE-start following the initial start-up. It comes close and it will cough and spew and fire but not quite start. So, it seems hard to start initially, even though it has started when cold but then does not want to start once run for several minutes. Thoughts? Second, on the EM, I will advance the throttle and watch the RPM rise, but as I get to around 4500 rpm the rpm's start jumping around up to like 6500 then drops to 2000, then maybe to 4000 rpm every couple of seconds (I do not have NOP displayed though)....this is ONLY on the EM the engine is churning steadily at a high RPM, but I have no idea of what the rpm's really are. In the lower rpm's the monitor seems to be more consistent....but actually it will jump around a bit too, but still has a more realistically even display at what I believe the rpm's actually are. Thoughts? Third, a bit more of a philosophical question. If we are using heat exchangers that are maybe about the same size as used in a car why do we seem to have cooling problems when the cars don't. Is it that when cars are stationary in traffic the rpm's remain pretty low and if they were revving at high rpm's they too would heat up faster? (also some seriously refined engineering from the auto manufacturers). I have not tweaked my cooling yet, but I have a pretty big radiator but I seem to be getting over 200 degree's F after only several minutes of running. It does take longer if it is running around 1000 rpm or below. I was just curious as to why it does not seem to transfer from cars to our use more directly. Would this be likely a non issue if I had 150 or so mph ram air being forced through the rad and oil cooler? But again, like I have said, my system has not been tweaked since I just got my computers back and just got it running again (also, being in Houston likely does not help any...even though it was a very pleasant 85 with low humidity today. Would colder weather make much of a difference?) How long should I expect to run the engine while stationary during engine testing and refinement before needing to shut down? Tracy mentioned in the manual that during "Auto Tune" mode, which may take about 10 minutes or so that if the engine gets too hot, to shut down and start where you left off after the engine cools. Is this about right, 10 minutes, or so, and the engine may start to approach red line. If so, I may be about right already. Thoughts? Finally, for now anyway, the rear seal on my "B" redrive failed. and I was having oil spread out from the rear of the redrive I replaced the seal (9009 IIRC) per Tracy's phone instructions and checked to make sure the passages where clear, but low and behold, it is leaking again. Sorry, not much to go on. I will disassemble again and check when I get a chance though. Thoughts? As always thanks for the insight. I know I can get too close to the issue and having a fresh perspective from y'all can be very helpful and give me a chance to step away and go "of course" once it is pointed out to me. Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27813_1203912877_0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Chris,
   Make sure your redrive drain/return line is doing its
job and not causing a high lube level and pressure buildup
internally.........Return line should be above full lube level
in oil sump...........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold




-------------- Original message from "Bill Schertz" <wschertz@comcast.net>: --------------

On the EM reading getting erratic, it may be noise pickup on the tach signal.
 
On the heating, when a car is idling, there is very little load. If you stay stationary and rev the engine, there is STILL very little load, while on the plane, the prop applies increasing load with rpm even if standing still. Imagine what the car would do, pulling heavy load at very low speed -- i.e. climbing a very steep gradient where it can only go 5mph with the engine revving -- like going up a mountain -- cars often overheat under those conditions.
 
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS (reserved)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Musings, Curiosities and Frustrations RE: My rotary install

I received my EC2/EM back from Tracy a week or so again and got it all installed (luckily my EC2 is in an easy access location on the cabin side firewall of my Velocity).  After messin' with stuff and holding my tongue just right I have gotten my engine to fire up and run.  Thank heavens, but now I have some questions for the collective regarding its running and some issues I am unsure about.
 
First, it seems if the stars are all aligned just right and Taurus is in sync with Venus, I have gotten the engine to start my last three trips to the hangar, however, I have not been able to get it to RE-start following the initial start-up.  It comes close and it will cough and spew and fire but not quite start. So, it seems hard to start initially, even though it has started when cold but then does not want to start once run for several minutes. Thoughts?
 
Second, on the EM, I will advance the throttle and watch the RPM rise, but as I get to around 4500 rpm the rpm's start jumping around up to like 6500 then drops to 2000, then maybe to 4000 rpm every couple of seconds (I do not have NOP displayed though)....this is ONLY on the EM the engine is churning steadily at a high RPM, but I have no idea of what the rpm's really are. In the lower rpm's the monitor seems to be more consistent....but actually it will jump around a bit too, but still has a more realistically even display at what I believe the rpm's actually are.  Thoughts?
 
Third, a bit more of a philosophical question.  If we are using heat exchangers that are maybe about the same size as used in a car why do we seem to have cooling problems when the cars don't. Is it that when cars are stationary in traffic the rpm's remain pretty low and if they were revving at high rpm's they too would heat up faster? (also some seriously refined engineering from the auto manufacturers).  I have not tweaked my cooling yet, but I have a pretty big radiator but I seem to be getting over 200 degree's F after only several minutes of running.  It does take longer if it is running around 1000 rpm or below.  I was just curious as to why it does not seem to transfer from cars to our use more directly.  Would this be likely a non issue if I had 150 or so mph ram air being forced through the rad and oil cooler? But again, like I have said, my system has not been tweaked since I just got my computers back and just go t it running again (also, being in Houston likely does not help any...even though it was a very pleasant 85 with low humidity today.  Would colder weather make much of a difference?)  How long should I expect to run the engine while stationary during engine testing and refinement before needing to shut down? Tracy mentioned in the manual that during "Auto Tune" mode, which may take about 10 minutes or so that if the engine gets too hot, to shut down and start where you left off after the engine cools.  Is this about right, 10 minutes, or so, and the engine may start to approach red line.  If so, I may be about right already.  Thoughts?
 
Finally, for now anyway, the rear seal on my "B" redrive failed. and I was having oil spread out from the rear of the redrive  I replaced the seal (9009 IIRC) per Tracy's phone instructions and checked to make sure the passages where clear, but low and behold, it is leaking again. Sorry, not much to go on.  I will disassemble again and check when I get a chance though. Thoughts?
 
As always thanks for the insight.  I know I can get too close to the issue and having a fresh perspective from y'all can be very helpful and give me a chance to step away and go "of course" once it is pointed out to me.
 
Thanks.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
 
 
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