X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c4) with ESMTP id 2681722 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:51:25 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080121125046.FRKG9845.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:50:46 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c85c2c$4b48d580$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Not Flooding! Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:51:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C85C02.62182A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C85C02.62182A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, I once had all six seals on my 13B freeze up after sitting only six = weeks - but with the intake and exhaust manifold off during humid = weather. My old HALTECH fuel injection system malfunction and flooded = the engine with gasoline to the point it pour out the exhaust stack. =20 Six weeks later, When I tried to start it, the engine would whiz over = on just the starter -no compression. I tried all the traditional = methods and got 3 apex seals loose. Then I took off the exhaust header = and got a piece of 1/8 - 3/16 thick piece of brass (don't use iron or = be tempted to use a screw driver) strip from local hobby shop. I = rotated the engine until one of the stuck seals was showing in the = exhaust port, I carefully positioned the brass strip through the = exhaust port and onto the apex seal. I then gentle apply pressure to = the seal several places over the portion I could reach through the = exhaust port. =20 However, since you apparently got your engine to run, I would have = expected that to free up the stuck seals. So it could be that a seal is = not stuck - but is not compressing - in other words if the apex seal = spring had collapsed/broken for any reason, you would probably not get = sufficient compression to start. So depending on how much work you are up to, you might take off your = exhaust header and check on whether you can get motion out of the seals. = When you press on the with an brass or aluminum bar they should move = in/out of their slot by approx. 1/16 -1/8". Good luck and hang in there, it can be frustrating getting all the early = bugs out. =20 Ed This method freed up two of the three remaining stuck seals. But, = nothing I did through the port would free up the sixth apex seal. I = ended up having to disassemble the engine and even then broke the sixth = one taking it out. It turns out the rotor's all had a veneer of = oxidation/rust - apparently from being exposed to the humid air for six = weeks. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Don Wallker=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:42 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Not Flooding! Rotarians, Thanks for all your replies of a couple of weeks ago. Tried most = of what you all suggested and still couldn't get it to start. It just = kept flooding. I kept pulling the plugs, blowing them out and trying to = start it. Frustrating is not the word for it. I did notice that if I = turned my controller to number 8 and hit the primer switch, all the = plugs would fire, the prop would move a few degrees and then my plugs = would no longer be wet, and when I charged the battery up, I could try = again. After much trying, I called Tracy and sent it in to him. It = turns out that there was a missing capacitor from the factory that = enables the unit to use the 2 wire Renesis CAS. It ran fine during = Tracy's initial test, but he used the 3 wire 13b CAS. He soldered on = the sensor, Now tests them all with both CASs and sent it back. Tracy, = thanks for the troubleshooting and the quick turn around. I learned way = more about this engine than I wanted to know, (but it is probably a good = thing in the long run). =20 I put it back in the plane and tried to fire it up. Could tell that it = was trying and not flooding as bad. Finally after a couple of battery = recharges, with the mixture very lean and no prime and the throttle full = open, it started, with difficulty, revved high before I pulled back the = throttle and it died. It shook a lot! Maybe more than a Lyc. With a = lot of trouble, I was able to get this to happen 3 times then called it = a day with a partial success. Came back the next day, to similar = results. After about the third time, in 3 hours, I thought to check to = see how hot the exhaust was. #1 was warm, but #2 rotor was stone cold. = Figured I was only starting on one rotor. One by one, switched out the = plugs, coils, injectors to no avail. I was just about to pack up and it = occurred to me that some one (Lynn?) said some thing about it not being = able to start if there is no compression and the way to get some, (if = the seals are sticking) is to add a little oil through the spark plug = holes. I did this to rotor #2, Started it lean with difficulty. It = started the same way and then suddenly took off to high revs and = smoothed way out. Smooth is nice! I backed off the throttle and no = matter what I did it died again. It ran for perhaps 15 seconds. Both = exhausts warm! I quit for the day. I went out for short time today, = got it to start like this again, with oil, but ran the battery down. = Packed it away and went flying to get current again. So I ask for your thoughts again. I seems that the seals are not = sealing on #2. How do I get them to loosen up? I assume they are just = stuck from sitting for a little over 3 years. I did turn the engine = over a couple of turns every couple of months and a lot more the last = few months. I suppose that #2 could have gotten something in it during = the building process ever though I was careful, but I am hoping that the = seals are just sticking and there is a way to un-stick them. I thought = that just running the engine would do it, but no joy. Your suggestions = please. I will continue plodding along. Envious of you who just turned it over and it ran. RV-8 completed Don Walker ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C85C02.62182A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don, I once had all six seals on my 13B freeze = up after=20 sitting only six weeks - but with the intake and exhaust manifold off = during=20 humid weather. My old HALTECH fuel injection system malfunction and = flooded=20 the engine with gasoline to the point it pour out the exhaust=20 stack.  
 
Six weeks later,  When I tried to start it, = the=20 engine would whiz over on just the starter -no compression.  I = tried all=20 the traditional methods and got 3 apex seals loose.  Then I took = off the=20 exhaust header and got a piece of 1/8 - 3/16  thick piece of brass = (don't=20 use iron or be tempted to use a screw driver) strip from local = hobby=20 shop.  I rotated the engine until one of the stuck seals was = showing in the=20 exhaust port, I carefully positioned the brass=20 strip  through the exhaust port and onto the apex seal.  = I then=20 gentle apply pressure to the seal several places over the portion I = could reach=20 through the exhaust port. 
 
However, since you apparently got your engine to = run, I=20 would have expected that to free up the stuck seals.  So it could = be that a=20 seal is not stuck - but is not compressing - in other words if the apex = seal=20 spring had collapsed/broken for any reason, you would probably not get=20 sufficient compression to start.
 
So depending on how much work you are up to, you = might=20 take off your exhaust header and check on whether you can get motion out = of the=20 seals.  When you press on the with an brass or aluminum bar they = should=20 move in/out of their slot by approx. 1/16 -1/8".
 
Good luck and hang in there, it can be = frustrating getting=20 all the early bugs out. 
 
Ed
 
This method freed up two of the three remaining = stuck=20 seals.  But, nothing I did through the port would free up the sixth = apex=20 seal.  I ended up having to disassemble the engine and even then = broke the=20 sixth one taking it out.  It turns out the rotor's all had a veneer = of=20 oxidation/rust - apparently from being exposed to the humid air for six=20 weeks.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Don = Wallker=20
Sent: Thursday, January 31, = 2008 9:42=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Not = Flooding!

Rotarians,
    Thanks for all = your replies of=20 a couple of weeks ago.  Tried most of what you all suggested and = still=20 couldn't get it to start.  It just kept flooding.  I kept = pulling=20 the plugs, blowing them out and trying to start it.  Frustrating = is not=20 the word for it.  I did notice that if I turned my controller to = number 8=20 and hit the primer switch, all the plugs would fire, the prop would = move a few=20 degrees and then my plugs would no longer be wet, and when I charged = the=20 battery up, I could try again.  After much trying, I called Tracy = and=20 sent it in to him.  It turns out that there was a missing = capacitor from=20 the factory that enables the unit to use the 2 wire Renesis CAS.  = It ran=20 fine during Tracy's initial test, but he used the 3 wire 13b = CAS.  He=20 soldered on the sensor, Now tests them all with both CASs and sent it=20 back.  Tracy, thanks for the troubleshooting and the quick turn = around. I=20 learned way more about this engine than I wanted to know, = (but it is=20 probably a good thing in the long run). 
I put it back in the plane = and tried to fire=20 it up. Could tell that it was trying and not flooding as = bad. =20 Finally after a couple of battery recharges, with the=20 mixture very lean and no prime and the throttle full open, = it=20 started, with difficulty, revved high before I pulled = back the=20 throttle and it died.  It shook a lot!  Maybe more = than a=20 Lyc.  With a lot of trouble, I was able to get this to = happen 3=20 times then called it a day with a partial success.  Came back the = next=20 day, to similar results.  After about the = third time, in 3=20 hours, I thought to check to see how hot the exhaust was.  #1=20 was warm, but #2 rotor was stone cold.  Figured I was = only=20 starting on one rotor.  One by one, switched out the plugs, = coils,=20 injectors to no avail.  I was just about to pack up and=20 it occurred to me that some one (Lynn?) said some=20 thing about it not being able to start if there is no = compression=20 and the way to get some, (if the seals are sticking) is to add a = little=20 oil through the spark plug holes.  I did this to rotor #2,  = Started=20 it lean with difficulty.  It started the same way and then = suddenly took=20 off to high revs and smoothed way out. Smooth is nice!  I = backed off=20 the throttle and no matter what I did it died = again.  It=20 ran for perhaps 15 seconds.  Both exhausts = warm!   I quit for the day.  I went out for = short time=20 today, got it to start like this again, with oil, but ran the battery=20 down.  Packed it away and went flying to get current = again.
   So I ask = for your thoughts=20 again.  I seems that the seals are not sealing on #2.  = How do I=20 get them to loosen up?  I assume they are just stuck from = sitting=20 for a little over 3 years.  I did turn the engine over a = couple of=20 turns every couple of months and a lot more the last few=20 months.  I suppose that #2 could have gotten something in=20 it during the building process ever though I was careful, = but I am=20 hoping that the seals are just sticking and there is a way to = un-stick=20 them.  I thought that just running the engine would do it, but no = joy.  Your suggestions please.   I will = continue=20 plodding along.
 
Envious of you who just turned = it over and=20 it ran.
RV-8 completed
Don Walker
 
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