X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2334159 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:56:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20070916165611.CYXI3965.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:56:11 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c7f882$91c59330$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:56:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F861.0A6A18F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F861.0A6A18F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, guess I get no credit - flunked again {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 9:54 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys No fair ED. I told you it was ignition related. I hope this helps = someone else to not make the same mistake I made. =20 Mark =20 On 9/16/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Well, I think I can take partial credit by saying something {:>) was = causing the reluctor/hall effect sensor to trigger at the wrong time or = perhaps twice as often. The ferrous 4130 would certainly cause the = sensor to trigger erratically by interfering with the magnetic field of = magnet.=20 But, must admit - that would be a hard one to find. Ed =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys =20 Ok, look all right on the oscilloscope within the range and = setting that you would expect to look at/with - implies that you found = something outside of that range. So some sort of sporadic signal = occurring at a higher/lower periodicity (I would pick higher) than = expected. I am not familiar with the Renesis CS pickup but could it = have been something causing the reluctor(hall effect?) sensor to trigger = at the wrong time or perhaps twice as often???=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys =20 I can't give away the answer but I can tell you it was not = obvious when looking at the signal with an oscilloscope. At least not in = the range and setting used to trigger the CAS signal.=20 Bobby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:54 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =20 Ed,=20 You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic = ignition. (I wish I had someone to give me hints). Yes, the ignition = timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the = problem. The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil isn't = firing any more often than on a 2-rotor. So, what's causing the erratic = ingition? That's the question.=20 Mark =20 On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hey, No Fair! Mark. Most of us do not have a Renesis shop = manual. But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has two = wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>). So it sounds like the problem was indeed ignition - well, = its almost always either fuel or spark causing a problem. So if fuel is = more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition. It probably wouldn't be = a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a certain rpm. So either = your ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?) = or else your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the = capability of the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely in this = case).=20 But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must say = I'm out of ideas. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys =20 Now Rusty!!! That's too obvious. ;-) OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my = problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. =20 Mark=20 =20 On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote:=20 OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision = to change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS. I got that = bright idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. =20 I've got it. YOU were the problem :-)=20 Rusty=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F861.0A6A18F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, guess I get no credit - flunked again=20 {:>)
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Sunday, September 16, = 2007 9:54=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One = for the=20 smart guys

No fair ED.  I told you it was ignition related.  I = hope this=20 helps someone else to not make the same mistake I made. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/16/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:=20
Well, I think I can take partial credit by = saying=20 something {:>) was causing the reluctor/hall effect sensor = to=20 trigger at the wrong time or perhaps twice as often.  The = ferrous 4130=20 would certainly cause the sensor to trigger erratically by = interfering with=20 the magnetic field of magnet.
 
But, must admit - that would be a hard one = to=20 find.
 
Ed 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Ed = Anderson=20
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, September = 15, 2007=20 1:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = One for the=20 smart guys

 
Ok, look all right on the oscilloscope = within the=20 range and setting that you would expect to look at/with - implies = that you=20 found something outside of that range.  So some sort of = sporadic=20 signal occurring at a higher/lower  periodicity (I would pick = higher)=20  than expected.   I am not familiar with the = Renesis CS=20 pickup but could it have been something causing the reluctor(hall = effect?)=20 sensor to trigger at the wrong time or perhaps twice as often???=20
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Bobby J. = Hughes
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, September = 15, 2007=20 2:39 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = One for=20 the smart guys

 
I=20 can't give away the answer but I can tell you it was not = obvious=20 when looking at the signal with an oscilloscope. At least not in = the=20 range and setting used to trigger the CAS signal. =
 
Bobby
 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf = Of Mark=20 Steitle
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:54 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys =

 
Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be = erratic=20 ignition.  (I wish I had someone to give me hints).  = Yes, the=20 ignition timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing = didn't=20 correct the problem.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, = so any=20 individual coil isn't firing any more often than on a=20 2-rotor.  So, what's causing the erratic ingition?  = That's the=20 question.
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote: =
Hey, No Fair! Mark.  =  Most of us=20 do not have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see the old = CS had=20 three wires, the new one has two wires - I get it - there is a = wire=20 missing {:>).
 
  So it sounds like the = problem was=20  indeed ignition - well, its almost always either fuel or = spark=20 causing a problem.  So if fuel is more or less ruled out = it=20 defaults to ignition.  It probably wouldn't be a rev = limiter as=20 they simply cut out above a certain rpm.  So either your = ignition=20 timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?)  = or else=20 your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the = capability of the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely = in this=20 case).
 
But, without a shop manual to give me = more=20 insight, I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark = Steitle=20
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, = September 14,=20 2007 10:52 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: One=20 for the smart guys

 
Now Rusty!!!  That's too obvious.  ;-)
 
OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be = causing my=20 problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop=20 manual. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy <rusty@radrotary.com=20 > wrote:=20
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my = decision to change over from the original CAS to the = Renesis=20 CAS.  I got that bright idea from last year's rotary = get=20 together at Tracy's.    
 
I've got = it.  YOU=20 were the problem :-) 
 
Rusty=20 =



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