X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2333908 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:55:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1045453wxd for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:54:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=WN+WWvcwVP1QSXVg8ZStmMY620X9ji5fh9S+nloZ3pc=; b=k902HP40bybd/eWu3MqJW8kXg/fdrqcmMPMStG2I93VTE+qamGsSUKHvVRkVRTs0Phfnt7s0SCwi7HDQO+QOwSn2bzI/AUFEKYIneoobk+lcV/a+NSfMN8jm/XLaTFhmEvsd073dlVDG0YnnaNEwUKw47YVn2wNF2PNTrdXGfe0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AQOPBiUnI3oY7PfixBu4SgKWNDlq4rrkem8Hh2G3WGmoV0W2/jrnIhGwopLsLB9sZTAGCZbD1M5Fych30qSwhVwA1kKsP+R03Upn2oLRFiR7GJwrjLCUnwsuv0bW08MK1ye0kMdcZe6/i/k23tWOy1lJY8EBF19XWeasPkdEb8Q= Received: by 10.90.90.3 with SMTP id n3mr2044108agb.1189950896890; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.35.16 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0709160654x2feafa46j8faed675c73b54@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:54:56 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5099_1288316.1189950896878" References: ------=_Part_5099_1288316.1189950896878 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No fair ED. I told you it was ignition related. I hope this helps someone else to not make the same mistake I made. Mark On 9/16/07, Ed Anderson wrote: > > Well, I think I can take partial credit by saying something {:>) was > causing the reluctor/hall effect sensor to trigger at the wrong time or > perhaps twice as often. The ferrous 4130 would certainly cause the sensor > to trigger erratically by interfering with the magnetic field of magnet. > > But, must admit - that would be a hard one to find. > > Ed > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:56 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > Ok, look all right on the oscilloscope within the range and setting that > you would expect to look at/with - implies that you found something outside > of that range. So some sort of sporadic signal occurring at a higher/lower > periodicity (I would pick higher) than expected. I am not familiar with > the Renesis CS pickup but could it have been something causing the > reluctor(hall effect?) sensor to trigger at the wrong time or perhaps twice > as often??? > > Ed > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bobby J. Hughes > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:39 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > I can't give away the answer but I can tell you it was not obvious when > looking at the signal with an oscilloscope. At least not in the range and > setting used to trigger the CAS signal. > > Bobby > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:54 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > Ed, > You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic ignition. > (I wish I had someone to give me hints). Yes, the ignition timing was too > far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the problem. The > coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil isn't firing any more > often than on a 2-rotor. So, what's causing the erratic ingition? That's > the question. > > Mark > > > On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote: > > > > Hey, No Fair! Mark. Most of us do not have a Renesis shop manual. > > But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has two wires - I get > > it - there is a wire missing {:>). > > > > So it sounds like the problem was indeed ignition - well, its almost > > always either fuel or spark causing a problem. So if fuel is more or less > > ruled out it defaults to ignition. It probably wouldn't be a rev limiter as > > they simply cut out above a certain rpm. So either your ignition timing > > somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?) or else your ignition was > > erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the capability of the coils to > > recharge between firings - unlikely in this case). > > > > But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must say I'm out > > of ideas. > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mark Steitle > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > Now Rusty!!! That's too obvious. ;-) > > > > OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my problem > > from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. > > > > Mark > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote: > > > > > > OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision to change > > > over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS. I got that bright idea from > > > last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. > > > > > > I've got it. YOU were the problem :-) > > > > > > Rusty > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_5099_1288316.1189950896878 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
No fair ED.  I told you it was ignition related.  I hope this helps someone else to not make the same mistake I made. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/16/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Well, I think I can take partial credit by saying something {:>) was causing the reluctor/hall effect sensor to trigger at the wrong time or perhaps twice as often.  The ferrous 4130 would certainly cause the sensor to trigger erratically by interfering with the magnetic field of magnet.
 
But, must admit - that would be a hard one to find.
 
Ed 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Ok, look all right on the oscilloscope within the range and setting that you would expect to look at/with - implies that you found something outside of that range.  So some sort of sporadic signal occurring at a higher/lower  periodicity (I would pick higher)  than expected.   I am not familiar with the Renesis CS pickup but could it have been something causing the reluctor(hall effect?) sensor to trigger at the wrong time or perhaps twice as often???
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:39 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
I can't give away the answer but I can tell you it was not obvious when looking at the signal with an oscilloscope. At least not in the range and setting used to trigger the CAS signal.
 
Bobby
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic ignition.  (I wish I had someone to give me hints).  Yes, the ignition timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the problem.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil isn't firing any more often than on a 2-rotor.  So, what's causing the erratic ingition?  That's the question.
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote:
Hey, No Fair! Mark.   Most of us do not have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has two wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>).
 
  So it sounds like the problem was  indeed ignition - well, its almost always either fuel or spark causing a problem.  So if fuel is more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition.  It probably wouldn't be a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a certain rpm.  So either your ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?)  or else your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the capability of the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely in this case).
 
But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Now Rusty!!!  That's too obvious.  ;-)
 
OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy <rusty@radrotary.com > wrote:
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision to change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS.  I got that bright idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's.    
 
I've got it.  YOU were the problem :-) 
 
Rusty



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