X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from is1.mum.edu ([69.18.50.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2333776 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:10:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.18.50.66; envelope-from=rob@mum.edu Received: from personnel10 ([10.10.0.196]) by is1.mum.edu (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with SMTP id l8GB9MYg025346 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:09:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003f01c7f852$beeba730$c4000a0a@personnel10> Reply-To: "Rob" From: "Rob" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:14:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7F828.D5EF5280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7F828.D5EF5280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BTW Mark, what is the advantage that you found by adding the Renesis CAS = to the 20B over the older RX7 type sensor that comes with the engine? Robert Robert Bollinger FM1099 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Ed,=20 Do you really think I would admit to doing something like that? I can = see where maybe bad plug wires could do it, or cross-firing, or a bad = coil or two. Anyway, that wasn't the problem either.=20 Well, I guess I'm going to have to tell you what it was before you go = nuts (probably too late already). =20 OK, here you go (drum roll).... When I converted over to the Renesis CAS, I used the old style front = cover which doesn't have a bracket for the CAS, so I had to fabricate a = bracket. So, what do you make a bracket out of that is a single point = failure item? You make it out of 4130 of course! WRONG!!!! = Apparently, since 4130 is a ferrous metal, it disrupted the signal from = the CAS at high rpm causing misfiring. I fabricated a new bracket from = aluminum, and the misfiring went away and the engine runs great. You = have to admit that this is a very unusual situation to try to diagnose. = So, if anyone is planning on converting to the Renesis CAS, make the = bracket out of aluminum, not 4130. =20 OK, so now you know. Go get some sleep before you hurt yourself. =20 Mark P.S. Kelly - The gap does significantly affect the signal. Before = discovering the problem, I tried various air gaps. I even got it to = where the engine wouldn't start. This gap is hard to control during the = fabrication of the CAS bracket. The final gap is about .020" and it = works great at that setting.=20 =20 On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote: OK, the only remaining thing I can think of - is you did not have = the plug wires firmly inserted into their sockets requiring the spark to = jump two (or more gaps) before getting to the spark plug. At higher rpm = the lessening dwell time for the coils did not permit them to build up = adequate voltage to jump the gaps every firing pulse. There! Going to bed {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:23 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Dennis,=20 Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis = timing gear. The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still = there. Just in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't installed = backwards nor was it clocked incorrectly. =20 Mark On 9/15/07, Dennis Haverlah wrote:=20 Mark, Was the frequency of the teeth going by the wheel too high for = the CAS? Dennis H. Mark Steitle wrote: Bob,=20 While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of = my problem. At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS to = no avail. =20 Mark=20 On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com wrote:=20 I haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your = gonna tell us anyway...eventually...but problems I've had before in race = cars...plug wires running parallel to each other, and too large of air = gap in the pickup in the distributor. Close???=20 Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Ed,=20 You are getting closer when you stated that it must be = erratic ignition. (I wish I had someone to give me hints). Yes, the = ignition timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't = correct the problem. The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual = coil isn't firing any more often than on a 2-rotor. So, what's causing = the erratic ingition? That's the question.=20 Mark =20 On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hey, No Fair! Mark. Most of us do not have a Renesis = shop manual. But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has = two wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>). So it sounds like the problem was indeed ignition - = well, its almost always either fuel or spark causing a problem. So if = fuel is more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition. It probably = wouldn't be a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a certain rpm. = So either your ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much = advance?) or else your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as = exceeding the capability of the coils to recharge between firings - = unlikely in this case).=20 But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must = say I'm out of ideas. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =20 Now Rusty!!! That's too obvious. ;-) OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be = causing my problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. = =20 Mark=20 =20 On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote:=20 OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my = decision to change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS. I got = that bright idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. =20 I've got it. YOU were the problem :-)=20 Rusty=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free = AOL Mail! ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7F828.D5EF5280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BTW Mark, what is the advantage that = you found by=20 adding the Renesis CAS to the 20B over the older RX7 type sensor that = comes with=20 the engine?
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
FM1099 = MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Sunday, September 16, = 2007 6:05=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One = for the=20 smart guys

Ed,
Do you really think I would admit to doing = something=20 like that?  I can see where maybe bad plug wires could do it, or=20 cross-firing, or a bad coil or two.   Anyway,  that = wasn't the=20 problem either.

Well, I guess I'm going to have to tell you = what it=20 was before you go nuts (probably too late already). 

OK, = here you=20 go (drum roll)....

When I converted over to the Renesis CAS, I = used the=20 old style front cover which doesn't have a bracket for the CAS, so I = had to=20 fabricate a bracket.  So, what do you make a bracket out of that = is a=20 single point failure item?  You make it out of 4130 of = course! =20 WRONG!!!!  Apparently, since 4130 is a ferrous metal, it = disrupted the=20 signal from the CAS at high rpm causing misfiring.  I fabricated = a new=20 bracket from aluminum, and the misfiring went away and the engine runs = great.  You have to admit that this is a very unusual situation = to try to=20 diagnose.  So, if anyone is planning on converting to the Renesis = CAS,=20 make the bracket out of aluminum, not 4130. 

OK, so now = you=20 know.  Go get some sleep before you hurt yourself. =20

Mark

P.S.  Kelly - The gap does significantly = affect the=20 signal.  Before discovering the problem, I tried various air = gaps. =20 I even got it to where the engine wouldn't start.  This gap is = hard to=20 control during the fabrication of the CAS bracket.  The final gap = is=20 about .020" and it works great at that setting.
 
On 9/15/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:
OK, the only remaining thing I can think of = - is you=20 did not have the plug wires firmly inserted into their sockets = requiring the=20 spark to jump two (or more gaps) before getting to the spark = plug.  At=20 higher rpm the lessening dwell time for the coils did not permit = them to=20 build up adequate voltage to jump the gaps every firing = pulse.
 
There!  Going to bed = {:>)
 
Ed
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle
To:=20 Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft Sent:=20 Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:23 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

Dennis,

Nope, part of the conversion was to = install=20 the stock Renesis timing gear.  The problem has been fixed = and the=20 Renesis gear is still there.  Just in case you're wondering, = the=20 timing gear wasn't installed backwards nor was it clocked = incorrectly.=20  

Mark

On 9/15/07, Dennis=20 Haverlah <clouduster@austin.rr.com> wrote:=20
Mark,
 Was the = frequency=20 of the teeth going by the wheel too high for the = CAS?

Dennis=20 H.

Mark Steitle wrote:
Bob,=20

While good things to check, neither of these were the = cause of=20 my problem.  At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap = on the=20 CAS to no avail. 

Mark

On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com <bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20
I=20 haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your = gonna tell=20 us anyway...eventually...but problems I've had before in = race=20 cars...plug wires running parallel to each other, and too = large of=20 air gap in the pickup in the distributor.   = Close???=20

Bob Mears
Supermarine = Spitfire


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sat, 15=20 Sep 2007 7:53 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the = smart=20 guys

Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be = erratic=20 ignition.  (I wish I had someone to give me = hints).  Yes,=20 the ignition timing was too far advanced, but retarding the = timing=20 didn't correct the problem.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 = ea,=20 so any individual coil isn't firing any more often = than on=20 a 2-rotor.  So, what's causing the erratic = ingition? =20 That's the question.
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > = wrote:=20
Hey, No Fair! Mark.  =  Most of=20 us do not have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see = the old=20 CS had three wires, the new one has two wires - I get it - = there=20 is a wire missing {:>).
 
  So it sounds like the=20 problem was  indeed ignition - well, its almost = always=20 either fuel or spark causing a problem.  So if fuel = is more=20 or less ruled out it defaults to ignition.  It = probably=20 wouldn't be a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a = certain=20 rpm.  So either your ignition timing somehow was off = at=20 higher rpm (too much advance?)  or else your ignition = was=20 erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the capability of = the=20 coils to recharge between firings - unlikely in this = case).=20
 
But, without a shop manual to give = me more=20 insight, I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
To:=20 Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent:=20 Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Now Rusty!!!  That's too obvious.  = ;-)
 
OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be = causing=20 my problem from the ignition section of the Renesis = shop=20 manual. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy <rusty@radrotary.com > = wrote:=20
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related = to my=20 decision to change over from the original CAS to = the=20 Renesis CAS.  I got that bright idea from last = year's=20 rotary get together at Tracy's.   =  
 
I've got = it. =20 YOU were the problem :-) 
 
Rusty=20 =


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free = AOL=20 = Mail!



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