X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.11) with ESMTP id 2286995 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:19:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l7RCIUCJ027800 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002b01c7e8a4$7edad660$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:19:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C7E882.F77AA130" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C7E882.F77AA130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wendell , I really don't know how much heat the fuel picks up. Depends = on a number of factors.=20 However, a low pressure (4-6 psi) boost pump, increases the pressure in = the header tank and suppresses (in my case) any tendency of the fuel to = percolate. I used the one Van recommends for the RV series - a facet = fuel pump with 37 deg fitting (vice the 45 for auto installations). = They are used on a number of different aircraft. Here is some more = information about the pump, I would recommend the model 40106 which has = up to 6 psi output. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php Before going further, I think its safe to say, that having a system that = has the high pressure EFI pump in the fuel tank and that returns the = heated fuel back to a main tank which acts as a heat sink is probably = the safest approach from a heated fuel stand point. I personally did = not want to run more fuel lines (particularly high pressure ones) = through the cockpit area. If you switch tanks then that would = necessitate switching both main line and return line to get the fuel = back to the correct tank. Also the ideal of a replacing a pump inside = the tank (if needed) did not appeal.=20 Tracy Crook uses a system whereby he feeds the engine from one wing tank = only and simply transfers fuel from the second wing tank into the feed = tank (one big header tank {:>)). Works fine as attested to by his 17 = years of rotary flying. There are other good, reliable and safe approaches, just need to think = them all through regarding fuel flow, leaks, vapor lock, etc. Having said that, here is my system: I have two high pressure fuel pumps each with its own feed from the = bottom of my tiny header tank (important that the header tank be air = tight and as low in the system as you can get it and feed to pumps be as = short as possible), each pump has its own high pressure (Stock GM EFI = filter with saganaw fittings and O ring) after the filters the line from = each is "Y" into a single line to feed first the primary injector and = then the secondary before returning to a pressure regulator the output = of which dumped back into the header tank. Each pump has its own power = feed and switch.=20 I use An-6 stainless steel braided lines for all fuel lines and the 4 = injectors feed in series off of it - no problems with adequate fuel flow = (at least up to 200HP). The boost pump is hooked into the line between the wing tank feed and = the header tank. I take off and land with both EFI pumps and the boost = pump on. My standard practice. That's about it. Yes, copying a successful system is a proven way - = but, as I tell folks, unless you have an exact duplicate in all details = - you have a different system and it may respond differently than the = one you copied. =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:46 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Ed, Thanks for the reply, now I believe I'll go with a smaller header = tank and make it aluminum or maybe go with fiberglass and use a cooler = on the return line, save a few pounds in the process. Just how much heat = is picked up in the fuel on the return? The Mazda fuel pump assembly = has the return going in a few inches from the pick-up for the pump and I = suppose there are no fuel heat related problems on the car. You talk about a boost pump. What type and how is it plumbed in to = the fuel system? (Maybe you get the idea I like to copy from successful = people?) Wendell Fuel system design is certainly a critical area and a lot of thought = needs to be given it. I went against the concept of large header tanks and have one that = holds approx 32 oz or one pint. I have it mounted on the engine side = of FW (would change that) and at the lowest point. After my pressure = regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny header tank. =20 Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a "returnless" fuel system = by controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent vapor lock. I = view my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header than and no header = tank {:>). I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it and I did have fuel = percolation on the ground before putting the tubes in. However, the = boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that occurred. Having been = flying with it in the sunny South for almost 10 years. My rational was that IF your larger header tanks does get filled = with hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot fuel off = and get new cooler fuel. My pint gets replenished at flight power = settings so quickly that heat is not an issue. A long idle on a hot day = could cause some percolation, but since I always take off with boost = pump on, its never been an issue. Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - needless to say, = but will anyhow. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:59 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Ed and Charlie, You both got the same answer, I think the 1.8 gal. estimate came = from my first mock-up and it was 14 in. instead of 15. In some of my = calculations I did get 2.0 +something as an answer. Now how much sump = tank volume is really needed? I think Perry Mick uses one slightly over = a gallon. If one gallon is sufficient, then I can save 6 pounds of = usually unused fuel. I regret hearing about George Graham, I was hoping to meet him, he = sent a drawing of his cooling set-up and was always ready to help. Wendell You can look at your tank as composed of two boxes (actually one = and 1/2 boxes). 1st box is 3.75" x 6" x 15" =3D 337.5 cubic inches.=20 A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D 281.25 Cubic inches = but you really only have 1/2 of this box, so triangular section volume = =3D 1/2 (rectangular section) volume =3D 281.25 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 = cubic inches So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 )+ 1/2 volume of = second box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 US Gallons Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks for the responses to my requests.=20 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an air = conditioner and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi. The larger = return line should only see about 175 psi on a hot tarmac (engine off) = and the feed line will see up to 275 psi (assuming a inefficient = condenser) on a hot day. Finding a place for the condenser is the main problem as I = see it. I'll look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs. I hoped = someone knew the exact size so they could be purchased locally. Here is a math problem for you brain types (all rotary head = but me) -how much fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. tall, 15 in. = long, 11 in.deep on the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then slopes to zero at = the front? I think it is about 1.8 gal. ___6in._ | \ =20 |_________\ 11in. Wendell In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific Standard = Time, jwvoto@itlnet.net writes: Hey guys, I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the exhaust = studs on the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for 3003-0 = aluminum tubing. Can it withstand 250psi Wendell What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch (wall) = yes. Give us an idea of what you are using it for. Bill Jepson -------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C7E882.F77AA130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wendell , I really don't know how much heat the fuel = picks=20 up.  Depends on a number of factors. 
 However, a low pressure (4-6 psi) boost pump, = increases=20 the pressure in the header tank and suppresses (in my case) any tendency = of the=20 fuel to percolate.  I used the one Van recommends for the RV series = - a=20 facet fuel pump with 37 deg fitting (vice the 45 for auto=20 installations).   They are used on a number of different=20 aircraft.  Here is some more information about the pump, I would = recommend=20 the model &nb= sp;40106 which has up to 6 psi=20 output.
 
htt= p://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php
 
Before going further, I think its safe to say, that = having a=20 system that has the high  pressure EFI pump in the fuel tank and =  that=20 returns the heated fuel back to a  main tank which acts as a = heat sink=20 is probably the safest approach from a heated fuel stand point.  I=20 personally did not want to run more fuel lines (particularly high = pressure ones)=20 through the cockpit area.  If you switch tanks then that would = necessitate=20 switching both main line and return line to get the fuel back to the = correct=20 tank.  Also the ideal of a replacing a pump inside the tank (if = needed) did=20 not appeal. 
 
Tracy Crook uses a system whereby he feeds the = engine from one=20 wing tank only and simply transfers fuel from the second wing tank into = the feed=20 tank (one big header tank {:>)).  Works fine as attested to by = his 17=20 years of rotary flying.
 
There are other good, reliable and safe approaches, = just need=20 to think them all through regarding fuel flow, leaks, vapor lock,=20 etc.
 
 
 Having said that, here is my = system:
 
I have two high pressure fuel pumps each with its = own feed=20 from the bottom of my tiny header tank (important that the header tank = be air=20 tight and as low in the system as you can get it and feed to pumps be as = short=20 as possible), each pump has its own high pressure (Stock GM EFI filter = with=20 saganaw fittings and O ring) after the filters the line from each is "Y" = into a=20 single line to feed first the primary injector and then the secondary = before=20 returning to a pressure regulator the output of which dumped back into = the=20 header tank.  Each pump has its own power feed and switch. =
I use An-6 stainless steel braided lines for all = fuel lines=20 and the 4 injectors feed in series off of it - no problems with adequate = fuel=20 flow (at least up to 200HP).
 
 
The boost pump is hooked into the line between the = wing tank=20 feed and the header tank.  I take off and land with both EFI pumps = and the=20 boost pump on.  My standard practice.
 
That's about it.  Yes, copying a successful = system is a=20 proven way - but, as I tell folks, unless you have an exact duplicate in = all=20 details - you have a different system and it may respond differently = than the=20 one you copied. 
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wendell = Voto=20
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 = 12:46=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

 
Ed,
Thanks for the reply, now I believe I'll go with = a smaller=20 header tank and make it aluminum or maybe go with fiberglass and use = a=20 cooler on the return line, save a few pounds in the process. Just = how much=20 heat is picked up in the fuel on the return?  The Mazda fuel = pump=20 assembly has the return going in a few inches from the pick-up for = the pump=20 and I suppose there are no fuel heat related problems on the=20 car.
You talk about a boost pump.  What type and = how is it=20 plumbed in to the fuel system? (Maybe you get the idea I like to = copy from=20 successful people?)
 
Wendell
Fuel system design is certainly a critical area = and a lot=20 of thought needs to be given it.
 
I went against the concept of large header tanks = and have=20 one that holds approx  32 oz or one pint.  I have it = mounted on=20 the engine side of FW (would change that) and at the lowest = point. =20 After my pressure regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny = header=20 tank. 
 
Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a = "returnless"=20 fuel system by controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent = vapor=20 lock.  I view my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header = than and=20 no header tank {:>).
 
I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it = and I did=20 have fuel percolation on the ground before putting the tubes = in. =20 However, the boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that=20 occurred.  Having been flying with it in the sunny South for = almost 10=20 years.
 
My rational was that IF your larger header tanks = does get=20 filled with hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot = fuel=20 off and get new cooler fuel.  My pint gets replenished at = flight power=20 settings so quickly that heat is not an issue.  A long idle on = a hot=20 day could cause some percolation, but since I always take off with = boost=20 pump on, its never been an issue.
 
Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - = needless=20 to say, but will anyhow.
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, August 25, = 2007 9:59=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

Thanks Ed and=20 Charlie,
You both got the same = answer, I=20 think the 1.8 gal. estimate came from my first mock-up and it was = 14 in.=20 instead of 15. In some of my calculations  I did get 2.0 = +something=20 as an answer.  Now how much sump tank volume is really = needed? =20 I think Perry Mick uses one slightly over a gallon.  If one = gallon is=20 sufficient, then I can save 6 pounds of usually unused = fuel.
 
I regret hearing = about George=20 Graham, I was hoping to meet him, he sent a drawing of his cooling = set-up=20 and was always ready to help.
 
Wendell

You can look at your tank as composed of two = boxes=20 (actually one and 1/2 boxes).  1st box is  3.75" x 6" = x 15" =3D=20 337.5 cubic inches.
 
A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D = 281.25 Cubic=20 inches but you really only have 1/2 of this box,   so = triangular=20 section volume  =3D 1/2 (rectangular = section) volume  =3D=20 281.25 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 cubic inches
 
So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 = )+ 1/2=20 volume of second box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 = US=20 Gallons
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, August = 25, 2007=20 1:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: need=20 help

 
Thanks for the responses to my requests. =
 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an = air=20 conditioner and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi.  = The=20 larger return line should only see about 175 psi on a hot = tarmac=20 (engine off) and the feed line will see up to 275 psi = (assuming a=20 inefficient condenser) on a hot day.
Finding a place for the condenser is the main = problem as I=20 see it.
 
I'll look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs.  = I hoped=20 someone knew the exact size so they could be purchased=20 locally.
 
Here is a math problem for you brain types (all = rotary head=20 but me) -how much fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. = tall, 15=20 in. long, 11 in.deep on the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then = slopes to=20 zero at the front? I think it is about 1.8 gal.
___6in._
|          &nb= sp;     \  =20
|_________\
       = 11in.
 
Wendell
 
In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific = Standard Time,=20 jwvoto@itlnet.net=20 writes:
Hey guys,
I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the = exhaust studs=20 on the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for = 3003-0=20 aluminum tubing.  Can it withstand 250psi
Wendell
What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch = (wall) yes.=20 Give us an idea of what you are using it for.
Bill Jepson



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