X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from x.itlnet.net ([64.19.112.9] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.11) with ESMTPS id 2286522 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:43:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.19.112.9; envelope-from=jwvoto@itlnet.net Received: from x.itlnet.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by x.itlnet.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l7R4gCv7031870 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:42:12 -0500 Received: from itlnet.net (email2.itlnet.net [192.168.10.157]) by x.itlnet.net (x.itlnet.net [172.16.1.148]) id j7PNgC0772546030zs ret-id none; Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:42:13 -0500 Received: from JWVOTO (unverified [64.19.115.100]) by itlnet.net (SurgeMail 3.8l) with ESMTP id 9937-1769559 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:42:06 -0500 Message-ID: <003f01c7e865$47469f20$64731340@JWVOTO> From: "Wendell Voto" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:46:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7E83B.44BD0020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Authenticated-User: jwvoto@itlnet.net X-ITLnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ITLnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-ITLnet-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.98, required 4, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB 0.62, SPF_HELO_PASS -0.00) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7E83B.44BD0020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Thanks for the reply, now I believe I'll go with a smaller header tank = and make it aluminum or maybe go with fiberglass and use a cooler on the = return line, save a few pounds in the process. Just how much heat is = picked up in the fuel on the return? The Mazda fuel pump assembly has = the return going in a few inches from the pick-up for the pump and I = suppose there are no fuel heat related problems on the car. You talk about a boost pump. What type and how is it plumbed in to = the fuel system? (Maybe you get the idea I like to copy from successful = people?) Wendell Fuel system design is certainly a critical area and a lot of thought = needs to be given it. I went against the concept of large header tanks and have one that = holds approx 32 oz or one pint. I have it mounted on the engine side = of FW (would change that) and at the lowest point. After my pressure = regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny header tank. =20 Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a "returnless" fuel system by = controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent vapor lock. I view = my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header than and no header tank = {:>). I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it and I did have fuel = percolation on the ground before putting the tubes in. However, the = boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that occurred. Having been = flying with it in the sunny South for almost 10 years. My rational was that IF your larger header tanks does get filled with = hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot fuel off and = get new cooler fuel. My pint gets replenished at flight power settings = so quickly that heat is not an issue. A long idle on a hot day could = cause some percolation, but since I always take off with boost pump on, = its never been an issue. Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - needless to say, but = will anyhow. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:59 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Ed and Charlie, You both got the same answer, I think the 1.8 gal. estimate came = from my first mock-up and it was 14 in. instead of 15. In some of my = calculations I did get 2.0 +something as an answer. Now how much sump = tank volume is really needed? I think Perry Mick uses one slightly over = a gallon. If one gallon is sufficient, then I can save 6 pounds of = usually unused fuel. I regret hearing about George Graham, I was hoping to meet him, he = sent a drawing of his cooling set-up and was always ready to help. Wendell You can look at your tank as composed of two boxes (actually one = and 1/2 boxes). 1st box is 3.75" x 6" x 15" =3D 337.5 cubic inches.=20 A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D 281.25 Cubic inches but = you really only have 1/2 of this box, so triangular section volume = =3D 1/2 (rectangular section) volume =3D 281.25 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 cubic = inches So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 )+ 1/2 volume of = second box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 US Gallons Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks for the responses to my requests.=20 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an air = conditioner and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi. The larger = return line should only see about 175 psi on a hot tarmac (engine off) = and the feed line will see up to 275 psi (assuming a inefficient = condenser) on a hot day. Finding a place for the condenser is the main problem as I see = it. I'll look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs. I hoped someone = knew the exact size so they could be purchased locally. Here is a math problem for you brain types (all rotary head = but me) -how much fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. tall, 15 in. = long, 11 in.deep on the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then slopes to zero at = the front? I think it is about 1.8 gal. ___6in._ | \ =20 |_________\ 11in. Wendell In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, = jwvoto@itlnet.net writes: Hey guys, I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the exhaust = studs on the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for 3003-0 = aluminum tubing. Can it withstand 250psi Wendell What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch (wall) yes. = Give us an idea of what you are using it for. Bill Jepson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C7E83B.44BD0020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Ed,
Thanks for the reply, now I believe I'll go with a = smaller=20 header tank and make it aluminum or maybe go with fiberglass and use a = cooler=20 on the return line, save a few pounds in the process. Just how much = heat is=20 picked up in the fuel on the return?  The Mazda fuel pump = assembly has=20 the return going in a few inches from the pick-up for the pump and I = suppose=20 there are no fuel heat related problems on the car.
You talk about a boost pump.  What type and = how is it=20 plumbed in to the fuel system? (Maybe you get the idea I like to copy = from=20 successful people?)
 
Wendell
Fuel system design is certainly a critical area = and a lot of=20 thought needs to be given it.
 
I went against the concept of large header tanks = and have=20 one that holds approx  32 oz or one pint.  I have it mounted = on the=20 engine side of FW (would change that) and at the lowest point.  = After my=20 pressure regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny header = tank. =20
 
Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a = "returnless" fuel=20 system by controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent vapor = lock. =20 I view my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header than and no = header=20 tank {:>).
 
I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it = and I did=20 have fuel percolation on the ground before putting the tubes = in. =20 However, the boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that = occurred. =20 Having been flying with it in the sunny South for almost 10=20 years.
 
My rational was that IF your larger header tanks = does get=20 filled with hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot = fuel off=20 and get new cooler fuel.  My pint gets replenished at flight = power=20 settings so quickly that heat is not an issue.  A long idle on a = hot day=20 could cause some percolation, but since I always take off with boost = pump on,=20 its never been an issue.
 
Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - = needless to=20 say, but will anyhow.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wendell Voto=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, August 25, = 2007 9:59=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

Thanks Ed and = Charlie,
You both got the same = answer, I=20 think the 1.8 gal. estimate came from my first mock-up and it was 14 = in.=20 instead of 15. In some of my calculations  I did get 2.0 = +something as=20 an answer.  Now how much sump tank volume is really = needed?  I=20 think Perry Mick uses one slightly over a gallon.  If one = gallon is=20 sufficient, then I can save 6 pounds of usually unused = fuel.
 
I regret hearing about = George=20 Graham, I was hoping to meet him, he sent a drawing of his cooling = set-up=20 and was always ready to help.
 
Wendell

You can look at your tank as composed of two = boxes=20 (actually one and 1/2 boxes).  1st box is  3.75" x 6" x = 15" =3D=20 337.5 cubic inches.
 
A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D = 281.25 Cubic=20 inches but you really only have 1/2 of this box,   so = triangular=20 section volume  =3D 1/2 (rectangular = section) volume  =3D=20 281.25 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 cubic inches
 
So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 = )+ 1/2 volume=20 of second box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 US=20 Gallons
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, August = 25, 2007=20 1:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

 
Thanks for the responses to my requests. =
 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an = air=20 conditioner and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi.  = The=20 larger return line should only see about 175 psi on a hot = tarmac=20 (engine off) and the feed line will see up to 275 psi = (assuming a=20 inefficient condenser) on a hot day.
Finding a place for the condenser is the main problem = as I see=20 it.
 
I'll=20 look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs.  I hoped someone = knew=20 the exact size so they could be purchased = locally.
 
Here=20 is a math problem for you brain types (all rotary head but me) = -how=20 much fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. tall, 15 in. long, = 11=20 in.deep on the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then slopes to zero = at the=20 front? I think it is about 1.8 gal.
___6in._
|          &nb= sp;     \  =20
|_________\
       = 11in.
 
Wendell
 
In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific Standard = Time, jwvoto@itlnet.net = writes:
Hey guys,
I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the exhaust = studs=20 on the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for = 3003-0=20 aluminum tubing.  Can it withstand 250psi
Wendell
What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch (wall) = yes.=20 Give us an idea of what you are using it for.
Bill Jepson



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