X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 73 [XX] (45%) BODY: contains "ambien" obfuscated (23%) URL: contains host with port number (12%) BODY: contains stock spam words (-21%) URL: weird port adjustment Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.8) with ESMTP id 2019754 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 May 2007 12:57:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.104; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l41GukJo003826 for ; Tue, 1 May 2007 12:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c78c11$deda4e50$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" issues Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:57:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C78BF0.57707C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C78BF0.57707C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, Bill. I used 65mm TB and it seems ideally suited for my operating regime - = fast throttle response, no hesitation or bog and plenty of power. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" issues Interesting Lynn, For the comparison that is 2,035 square mm inlet area. Assuming the = bigger 13B could use 1/3 More inlet area the total would be 2,646 square = mm. The inlet area of the 65 mm throttle body is 3,318 square mm. Seems = like a 65 mm TB would be more than up to the task. A 60 mm TB is 2,827 = square mm for reference. Plenty big Buly Bill Jepson =20 -----Original Message----- From: lehanover@aol.com To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 9:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" issues Two 36MM chokes is enough for 244.8 HP at 9,400 RPM, and About 176 HP = at 7,000 RPM. I am in California and the dyno sheet is in Hebron Ohio. = But I can quote it when I get back if it would help anyone. Lynn E. Hanover =20 -----Original Message----- From: atlasyts@bellsouth.net To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 9:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" issues Thanks for the advise Tracy. I also want to ship the EC/EM to you for = updates.=20 I'll be away to Orlando the whole next week and it is a good time for me = to do=20 the updates, if it's OK with you. Thanks. Buly >=20 > From: "Tracy Crook" > Date: 2007/04/30 Mon AM 09:18:53 EST > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" issues >=20 > I doubt that a larger TB will do any better Buly. That's about the = same size=20 I have on my Renesis engine and it is very well matched. Several other = builders=20 have installed monster sized TBs on Paul's advice and found no = improvement and=20 in some cases less power. Contrary to his usual philosophy, bigger is = not=20 necessarily better.=20 >=20 > Here's a simple test you can do to remove the 'opinion factor' out = of this=20 discussion. If your manifold pressure at WOT is the same as ambient = barometric=20 pressure (at low altitude), there is nothing a larger TB will do to = improve it. =20 If MP is less than ambient, start looking at your intake path factors = like=20 inlet, SCAT tubing (if used), air filter, and anything else in the air = path. If=20 none of these are the limiting factor, then and only then should you = think about=20 going to a larger TB. >=20 > I'm using a 70mm TB on my 20B which I think is about the minimum size = for the=20 300 HP I expect. It should give good linear throttle response without = the "dead=20 travel" of an overly large TB. I'm betting it will pass the MP test = mentioned=20 above although I haven't had a chance to test it in flight yet. >=20 > On another topic, Paul has been spreading the story that the EC2 will = not work=20 with a CS or variable pitch prop. After hearing this, one builder = immediately=20 put his EC2 up for sale without even asking me if this were true. = That's=20 incredible to me but a testament to the blind faith that some people put = in=20 Paul's opinion. Simply put, Paul's claim is pure nonsense. =20 >=20 > The same applies to his warning to never use anything but Mazda = factory apex=20 seals, a thinly veiled negative reference to the "RA Seals" that Bruce=20 Turrentine and I collaborated on. (Full disclosure: Bruce did the major = part in=20 their development, I merely offered advice from time to time). =20 >=20 > After years of listening to Paul's claim that my cooling system is not = suitable, marginal at best, will not work out west where there are = mountains,=20 etc, etc, I declined his offer to market his new book "How to Cool = Your=20 Wankel". Much of it is valid data from a number of sources but I simply = do not=20 agree with his conclusions on how to apply it. I expect an up-tic in = his=20 vitriol : ) >=20 > Tracy Crook > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Bulent Aliev=20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:05 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Throttle body size >=20 >=20 > I originally planned and tried TA set up on my Cosmo 13B. Soon after = =20 > the first few flights removed the turbo and vent NA. At the time did = =20 > not pay much attention on the throttle body size, counting on the =20 > turbo to make up for any losses. Today I measured the inside opening = =20 > of the TB and was surprised to find it was only 60mm. This is rather = =20 > small. Paul Lamar on his visit also said I should get a bigger one. = I =20 > wander what size TB other people are using, or any comments and =20 > suggestions on the matter will be helpful. >=20 > Buly >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >=20 >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free = from AOL at AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C78BF0.57707C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree, Bill.
 
I used  65mm TB and it seems = ideally suited=20 for my operating regime - fast throttle response, no hesitation or bog = and=20 plenty of power.
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 = 12:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Throttle body=20 size/ other "Paul" issues

Interesting Lynn,
For the comparison that is 2,035 square mm inlet area. Assuming = the=20 bigger 13B could use 1/3 More inlet area the total would be 2,646 = square mm.=20 The inlet area of the 65 mm  throttle body is 3,318 square mm. = Seems like=20 a 65 mm TB would be more than up to the task. A 60 mm TB is 2,827 = square=20 mm for reference. Plenty big Buly
Bill Jepson
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 lehanover@aol.com
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tue, 1 = May 2007=20 9:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul"=20 issues

Two 36MM chokes is enough for 244.8 HP at 9,400 RPM, and About = 176 HP at=20 7,000 RPM. I am in California and the dyno sheet is in Hebron Ohio. = But I can=20 quote it when I get back if it would help anyone.

Lynn E.=20 Hanover
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: atlasyts@bellsouth.net
To:=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Sent:=20 Mon, 30 Apr 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body = size/ other=20 "Paul" issues

Thanks =
for the advise Tracy. I also want to ship the EC/EM to you for updates. =



I'll be away to Orlando the whole next week and it is a good time for me =
to do 


the updates, if it's OK with you.


Thanks.


Buly


> 


> From: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>


> Date: 2007/04/30 Mon AM 09:18:53 EST


> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>


> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Throttle body size/ other "Paul" =
issues


> 


> I doubt that a larger TB will do any better Buly.  That's about the =
same size 


I have on my Renesis engine and it is very well matched.  Several other =
builders 


have installed monster sized TBs on Paul's advice and found no =
improvement and 


in some cases less power.   Contrary to his usual philosophy, bigger is =
not 


necessarily better. 


> 


>    Here's a simple test you can do to remove the 'opinion factor' =
out of this 


discussion.  If your manifold pressure at WOT is the same as ambient =
barometric 


pressure (at low altitude), there is nothing a larger TB will do to =
improve it.  


If MP is less than ambient, start looking at your intake path factors =
like 


inlet, SCAT tubing (if used), air filter, and anything else in the air =
path.  If 


none of these are the limiting factor, then and only then should you =
think about 


going to a larger TB.


> 


> I'm using a 70mm TB on my 20B which I think is about the minimum =
size for the 


300 HP I expect.  It should give good linear throttle response without =
the "dead 


travel" of an overly large TB.  I'm betting it will pass the MP test =
mentioned 


above although I haven't had a chance to test it in flight yet.


> 


> On another topic, Paul has been spreading the story that the EC2 =
will not work 


with a CS or variable pitch prop.   After hearing this, one builder =
immediately 


put his EC2 up for sale without even asking me if this were true.  =
That's 


incredible to me but a testament to the blind faith that some people put =
in 


Paul's opinion.   Simply put, Paul's claim is pure nonsense.  


> 


> The same applies to his warning to never use anything but Mazda =
factory apex 


seals, a thinly veiled negative reference to the "RA Seals" that Bruce =



Turrentine and I collaborated on.  (Full disclosure: Bruce did the major =
part in 


their development, I merely offered advice from time to time).  


> 


> After years of listening to Paul's claim that my cooling system is =
not 


suitable, marginal at best, will not work out west where there are =
mountains, 


etc, etc,   I declined his offer to market his new book "How to Cool =
Your 


Wankel".  Much of it is valid data from a number of sources but I simply =
do not 


agree with his conclusions on how to apply it.  I expect an up-tic in =
his 


vitriol : )


> 


> Tracy Crook


>   ----- Original Message ----- 


>   From: Bulent Aliev<mailto:atlasyts@bellsouth.net> =



>   To: Rotary motors in =
aircraft<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net> 


>   Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:05 PM


>   Subject: [FlyRotary] Throttle body size


> 


> 


>   I originally planned and tried TA set up on my Cosmo 13B. Soon =
after  


>   the first few flights removed the turbo and vent NA. At the time =
did  


>   not pay much attention on the throttle body size, counting on the =
 


>   turbo to make up for any losses. Today I measured the inside =
opening  


>   of the TB and was surprised to find it was only 60mm. This is =
rather  


>   small. Paul Lamar on his visit also said I should get a bigger =
one. I  


>   wander what size TB other people are using, or any comments and  =



>   suggestions on the matter will be helpful.


> 


>   Buly


> 


> 


> 


> 


> 


>   --


>   Homepage:  =
http://www.flyrotary.com/<http://www.flyrotary.com/>


>   Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l<http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html>

> 


> 








--


Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free = from=20 AOL at AOL.com.
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