Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #36285
From: David Carter <dcarter11@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: water boiling point
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:19:29 -0500
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Re: [FlyRotary] water boiling point
Al has hit the nail on the head - in my opinion.
 
I don't even have my RX-8 mounted yet, much less have any personal experience with the cooling system.  But, I've been monitoring this list for about 10 years and learning a LOT.
. . .I have previously posted that I plan to use the Ford Contour (about year model 2000) architecture - pressure coolant tank (fill system through this tanks opening, which is then sealed with the only pressure cap in the system), mounted so its coolant level (which allows air space above the coolant, exactly as Al describes) about level with or slightly higher than the highest point in the system (top of engine).  At this highest point, there is an "air" bleen (very small line) back directly to the coolant tank (can't figure if it makes any difference if its entrance into the tank is below or above the coolant level - think it makes no difference).  This purges steam and air, when/if any exists in the system, so we have only liquid surrounding the engine.
 
This cooling system is filled by pouring coolant into the tank - the main line from tank into cooling system is a straight-down a large pipe to a T at the bottom of the car's radiator, the lowest spot in the system, so, as system fills with liquid, it forces air out the top, eventually with fluid coming out the "air bleed" fitting mentioned above and concurrently filling the "tank".  No burping required.  And there is still an appropriate amount of air on top of the coolant in the tank.
 
No one has ever found fault with this system as far as I've seen by watcing this list - but also, no one has ever resonded to my posts either saying , "Yeah, that's right" or "That is less than optimum because . . . ".  I'm not whining about not getting reinforcement or validation.  But I'm pointing out that it appears most folks flying so far already have a non-optimum system installed and must not be ready to comment about a system they don't use.  I'd have thought someone would have at least commented one way or the other.
. . . But to the contrary, the "other" systems continue to seem to proliferate and all kinds of different expansion tank locations and construction get shared here.
 
Nevertheless, I think Al has described the perfect system.
 
David Carter
RV-6 (still on canopy frame)
----- Original Message -----
From: al p wick
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water boiling point

There's one coolant design that's substantially better than the others. I discovered it when doing severe ground testing...deliberately overheating my engine.
 
Three basic requirements:
 
1) Place your radiator cap and reservoir above engine. The higher the better. This allows trapped air in system to rise out of the flow and stay there.
2) Put a 24 psi cap on the system. You can throw away your overflow stuff. Not needed.
3) Always keep around 2 cups of air under the cap. This is the key item. It brings a big safety advantage. It allows you to use coolant pressure to predict well in advance how good your system is doing. It minimizes pressure. Mine never exceeds 7 psi. But if something goes wrong, then my pressure rises and I gain boilover protection due to the increase in system pressure.
 
If you have compression leak into the cooling system, it shows immediately as spike in pressure that reaches 24psi. But when all is normal, you never see pressure above 7 psi. If you have any cooling problem, the pressure gage will respond quicker than any other sensor.
 
Sounds like many of you don't have that 2 cups of air. As result, your coolant pressure regularly reaches 24 psi. Stressing components (radiator welds actually). It masks compression leaks. Makes it difficult to predict your safety margin.  
 
Tough to explain this stuff in text, but it's a big improvement in safety margin. No downside.
 
To qualify the system, I omit the two cups of air. This causes pressure to rise to 24 psi. Thus proving all of my welds and connections have safety margin. Then I add the 2 cups of air and the system never rises above 7 psi unless something goes wrong....whereupon I have extra margin preventing boilover. Your biggest cooling risk as it cascades and is nearly irreversible.  
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
                                                                                                                     
 
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:41:33 -0400 "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com> writes:
Higher coolant pressure will naturally increase the risk of a leak due to blown hose, loose clamp, radiator tank failure, etc.  As in many of these matters, it is the builders choice as to which potential problem is most important.  
 
BTW, I do recommend doing a system pressure test at annual inspection time or after making any changes.  I intentionally over-pressure the system by 50% by hooking a regulated air pressure source to the overflow port on the cap fitting.
 
I could be wrong but the likelihood of a blown rotor housing coolant seal from coolant pressure is very low.  If coolant pressure causes them to leak there was a problem that needed to be addressed long before the leak happened.  Most coolant seal leaks happen at the inner seal which normally have to seal combustion chamber pressure.  Even 30 psi coolant pressure is a very tiny fraction of that.
 
Tracy  (still waiting on Bluemountain)
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