X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 50 [XX] (100%) RECEIVED: Received headers not consistent with Juno "FROM:" Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with SMTP id 1930863 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:13:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABC972ECAQ4EUQ2 for (sender ); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:12:02 -0700 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkBLdLPHR/0+H6qNqg/7Ap3XCTYkOxsTUxg== Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MG8GUPN4; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:11:40 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:10:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: water boiling point Message-ID: <20070319.121128.2592.3.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_59fe.6978.2281 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,9-12,15,17,23-24,28-29,33-34,36-37,43-46,48,50-52,54-56,60-61,65-66,72-81,86-95,97-98,100-119,121,123-124,125-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 31:15:3997026744 X-MAIL-INFO:544141e11df9392ca599cde158cd3dc56d212dcd1925cce91d192d211911198dbda845084165e101e1001d4c3d61854c2cf9b9a889e85969699c4da11ce85da18c3ddcd9a1dc110d711195f861e9a988c8fcdc896941004c1d29410065cc49a58d3c3c8141992ca5b899818919d5e578083d65552521ccfc053c780829bdad794c0ca9e149a53c0000999841410c31b9312c05d179b1a5759dad5c151ce5ad18a809051895c1a51d7c48f8b55cb569e5dd71c169a5c548e8c10de8e801c5910de5d1adc1158c19e955b1c5b16d5c78a1fc250de521656545792d1911290849 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_59fe.6978.2281 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's one coolant design that's substantially better than the others. I discovered it when doing severe ground testing...deliberately overheating my engine. Three basic requirements: 1) Place your radiator cap and reservoir above engine. The higher the better. This allows trapped air in system to rise out of the flow and stay there. 2) Put a 24 psi cap on the system. You can throw away your overflow stuff. Not needed. 3) Always keep around 2 cups of air under the cap. This is the key item. It brings a big safety advantage. It allows you to use coolant pressure to predict well in advance how good your system is doing. It minimizes pressure. Mine never exceeds 7 psi. But if something goes wrong, then my pressure rises and I gain boilover protection due to the increase in system pressure. If you have compression leak into the cooling system, it shows immediately as spike in pressure that reaches 24psi. But when all is normal, you never see pressure above 7 psi. If you have any cooling problem, the pressure gage will respond quicker than any other sensor. Sounds like many of you don't have that 2 cups of air. As result, your coolant pressure regularly reaches 24 psi. Stressing components (radiator welds actually). It masks compression leaks. Makes it difficult to predict your safety margin. Tough to explain this stuff in text, but it's a big improvement in safety margin. No downside. To qualify the system, I omit the two cups of air. This causes pressure to rise to 24 psi. Thus proving all of my welds and connections have safety margin. Then I add the 2 cups of air and the system never rises above 7 psi unless something goes wrong....whereupon I have extra margin preventing boilover. Your biggest cooling risk as it cascades and is nearly irreversible. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:41:33 -0400 "Tracy Crook" writes: Higher coolant pressure will naturally increase the risk of a leak due to blown hose, loose clamp, radiator tank failure, etc. As in many of these matters, it is the builders choice as to which potential problem is most important. BTW, I do recommend doing a system pressure test at annual inspection time or after making any changes. I intentionally over-pressure the system by 50% by hooking a regulated air pressure source to the overflow port on the cap fitting. I could be wrong but the likelihood of a blown rotor housing coolant seal from coolant pressure is very low. If coolant pressure causes them to leak there was a problem that needed to be addressed long before the leak happened. Most coolant seal leaks happen at the inner seal which normally have to seal combustion chamber pressure. Even 30 psi coolant pressure is a very tiny fraction of that. Tracy (still waiting on Bluemountain) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Welter To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 8:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water boiling point My same thought, the higher pressure the better chance of leaks, for the last 1400 hrs I have been running a 7 lb cap with no problem, I normally run about 180 for water temp but do see 220 on a hard climb out on a hot day and when at high altitude its usually so cold outside that cooling is not an issue. Ken Welter Thanks for your reply Tracy! I did a google search on water boiling point. Coolant should be higher, but it seems that water boils at 183 degrees at 16,000 feet. But that is with no added pressure. I could not find the corrected number for the 12 psi cap. I wonder how many blown rotor housing seals are due to higher coolant pressure ? George Graham Sarasota Florida Mazda RX7 EZ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_59fe.6978.2281 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [FlyRotary] water boiling point
There's one coolant design that's substantially better than the others= . I=20 discovered it when doing severe ground testing...deliberately overheating = my=20 engine.
 
Three basic requirements:
 
1) Place your radiator cap and reservoir above engine. The higher the= =20 better. This allows trapped air in system to rise out of the flow and stay= =20 there.
2) Put a 24 psi cap on the system. You can throw away your overflow = stuff.=20 Not needed.
3) Always keep around 2 cups of air under the cap. This is the key = item. It=20 brings a big safety advantage. It allows you to use coolant pressure to = predict=20 well in advance how good your system is doing. It minimizes pressure. Mine = never=20 exceeds 7 psi. But if something goes wrong, then my pressure rises and I = gain=20 boilover protection due to the increase in system pressure.
 
If you have compression leak into the cooling system, it shows = immediately=20 as spike in pressure that reaches 24psi. But when all is normal, you never = see=20 pressure above 7 psi. If you have any cooling problem, the pressure gage = will=20 respond quicker than any other sensor.
 
Sounds like many of you don't have that 2 cups of air. As result,= your=20 coolant pressure regularly reaches 24 psi. Stressing components (radiator = welds=20 actually). It masks compression leaks. Makes it difficult to predict = your=20 safety margin.  
 
Tough to explain this stuff in text, but it's a big improvement = in=20 safety margin. No downside.
 
To qualify the system, I omit the two cups of air. This causes = pressure to=20 rise to 24 psi. Thus proving all of my welds and connections have safety = margin.=20 Then I add the 2 cups of air and the system never rises above 7 psi = unless=20 something goes wrong....whereupon I have extra margin preventing boilover. = Your=20 biggest cooling risk as it cascades and is nearly=20 irreversible.  
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve=20 lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct= ,=20 Risk assessment info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
  =             &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;      
 
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:41:33 -0400 "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com> writes:
Higher coolant pressure will naturally increase the risk of a leak = due to=20 blown hose, loose clamp, radiator tank failure, etc.  As in many of = these=20 matters, it is the builders choice as to which potential problem is most= =20 important.  
 
BTW, I do recommend doing a system pressure test at=20 annual inspection time or after making any changes.  I = intentionally=20 over-pressure the system by 50% by hooking a regulated air pressure = source to=20 the overflow port on the cap fitting.
 
I could be wrong but the likelihood of a blown rotor housing coolant= seal=20 from coolant pressure is very low.  If coolant pressure causes = them=20 to leak there was a problem that needed to be addressed long before the = leak=20 happened.  Most coolant seal leaks happen at the inner seal which=20 normally have to seal combustion chamber pressure.  Even 30=20 psi coolant pressure is a very tiny fraction of that.
 
Tracy  (still waiting on Bluemountain)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Welter
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 8:= 21=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water = boiling=20 point

  My same thought, the higher pressure the better chance of = leaks,=20 for the last 1400 hrs I have been running a 7 lb cap with no problem, I= =20 normally run about 180 for water temp but do see 220 on a hard climb = out on=20 a hot day and when at high altitude its usually so cold outside that = cooling=20 is not an issue.
 Ken Welter

 

Thanks for your reply Tracy!
I did=20 a google search on water boiling point.  Coolant should be=20 higher,
but it seems that water boils at 183 degrees at 16,000 = feet.=20 But that
is with no added pressure.  I could not find the=20 corrected number for the 12 psi cap.

I wonder how many blown = rotor=20 housing seals are due to higher coolant pressure=20 ? 




George Graham
Sarasota Florida
Mazda= RX7=20 EZ
 
It's here! Your new message!
Get= new=20 email alerts with the free Yahoo= !=20 Toolbar.

 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
----__JNP_000_59fe.6978.2281--