X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc1-s41.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.113] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.6) with ESMTP id 1464376 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:43:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.113; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.87]) by bay0-omc1-s41.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:43:12 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:43:12 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.114.24 by BAY115-DAV15.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:43:11 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.114.24] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] newbie Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:43:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C6EED5.E44D1720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0029.3000 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:43:05 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2006 18:43:12.0809 (UTC) FILETIME=[6FE29190:01C6EEF7] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C6EED5.E44D1720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Philip, Yes, most everything that applies to the earlier 13B applies to the = Renesis (it IS a 13B, says so right on the rotor housings), with a few = exceptions (long subject for an email). You are correct in your concern about weight. The rotary IS very light, = but compared to what? The actual installed weight will depend a lot on = your choices (literally dozens of them). Overweight installations get = there 1 ounce at a time. If you pay attention to weight, the rotary can = come in at the same weight as an O - 320 Lyc. My RV-4 empty weight is = (or was when I weighed it 13 years ago) 948 lbs which is at the low end = for RV-4s. My FWF weight on the current installation (Renesis) is ~ 325 = lbs. I have seen rotary installations that I estimate weigh almost 100 = lbs more. Details matter. =20 I think the rotary is about the only auto engine that is at or better = than standard aircraft engines for power to weight ratio.=20 Power? Only facts I can offer are my Sun 100 race results. The closest = O - 320 powered RV in the race was more than 10 mph slower than my = 217.51 MPH average speed (2004 race). I would like to see more Subies = enter! Bob (Oldfield?) entered his turbocharged EJ-22 powered RV-4 in = 2002 and finished at 207 MPH average speed. He gave up on the Sube = after his 4th engine threw a rod. The first 3 failed for various other = reasons. Cost? That varies as much or more than weight. I think George Graham = gets the low cost award. His total FWR (pusher) cost was less than = $2000 best I recall. He has since changed his redrive (was a Mazda = transmission in 2nd gear) to an RWS drive (which doubled his = installation cost : )=20 Tracy (must get back to work on RV-8) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Phillip Kaye=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] newbie Hello all, I'm new to this group. I'm at the beginning of an RV-9A construction = (working on rudder now). As I'm sure everyone does at the beginning, = I've been spending a lot of time thinking ahead about hte choices I'll = have to make later on. I'm very interested in the Rotary option, and = have tonnes of questions. A few that come to mind initially: 1) I would probably go with a 4-port Renesis. Would most of the = conversion information that is available for the older RX-7 engines be = applicable to the new engines? Or would I have to solve a bunch of = problems from scratch, without being able to draw much on the experience = of others who have done older 13B conversions? 2) One of my biggest concerns about auto-conversions is weight. The = rotary enthusiasts claim it has very low weight. The = anti-auto-conversion people point out that much of the extra weight in a = conversion comes from all the extra stuff you have to modify or add to = make it work properly. What would the real final installed wieght of a = renesis on an RV-9 be, compared with an O-320 installation (i.e. not = just engine weight, but total installed weight)? 3) Power - Subaru auto conversions are popular in RVs. However, = people put in Subie engines that are advertised to be 165 HP, but at the = prop they develop much less power, and a popular complaint is that these = aircraft end-up being slow, and under-powered. What is the case with a = Rotary? If I put a Renesis on an RV-9A, would this give me as much = power as an O-320? Do I need a CS prop? My strong preference is to use = a FP prop. 4) Money - assuming I buy a remanufactured engine from Mazda or = somewhere else (i.e. buy a remanufactured engine and not overhaul an = older engine myself), how much money will I really save, after you = account for all the accessories and modifications? Thanks for any advice you folks can offer on these questions! Phil Kaye =20 =20 ___________________________________ Phillip Kaye RV-9A Ser# 91440 C-FUNC(reserved) www.c-func.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C6EED5.E44D1720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Philip,
  Yes, most everything that applies to the earlier 13B applies = to the=20 Renesis (it IS a 13B, says so right on the rotor housings), with a few=20 exceptions (long subject for an email).
 
You are correct in your concern about weight.  The rotary IS = very=20 light,  but compared to what?  The actual installed weight = will depend=20 a lot on your choices (literally dozens of them).  Overweight = installations=20 get there 1 ounce at a time.  If you pay attention to weight, the = rotary=20 can come in at the same weight as an O - 320 Lyc.  My RV-4 empty=20 weight is (or was when I weighed it 13 years ago) 948 lbs which is = at the=20 low end for RV-4s.  My FWF weight on the current installation = (Renesis)=20 is ~ 325 lbs.  I have seen rotary installations that I = estimate weigh=20 almost 100 lbs more.  Details matter. 
 
I think the rotary is about the only auto engine that is at or = better than=20 standard aircraft engines for power to weight ratio.
 
Power?  Only facts I can offer are my Sun 100 race = results.  The=20 closest O - 320 powered RV in the race was more than 10 mph slower = than my=20 217.51 MPH average speed (2004 race).  I would like to = see more Subies=20 enter!   Bob (Oldfield?) entered his turbocharged  EJ-22 = powered=20 RV-4 in 2002 and finished at 207 MPH average speed.  He gave up on = the Sube=20 after his 4th engine threw a rod.  The first 3 failed for = various=20 other reasons.
 
Cost?  That varies as much or more than weight.  I think = George=20 Graham gets the low cost award.  His total FWR (pusher) cost was = less than=20 $2000 best I recall.  He has since changed his redrive (was a = Mazda=20 transmission in 2nd gear) to an RWS drive (which doubled his = installation cost :=20 ) 
 
Tracy (must get back to work on RV-8)
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 = 11:44=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = newbie

Hello all,

I'm new to this group.  I'm at = the=20 beginning of an RV-9A construction (working on rudder now).  As = I'm sure=20 everyone does at the beginning, I've been spending a lot of time = thinking=20 ahead about hte choices I'll have to make later on.  I'm very = interested=20 in the Rotary option, and have tonnes of questions.  A few that = come to=20 mind initially:

1) I would probably go with a 4-port = Renesis. =20 Would most of the conversion information that is available for the = older RX-7=20 engines be applicable to the new engines?  Or would I have to = solve a=20 bunch of problems from scratch, without being able to draw much on the = experience of others who have done older 13B conversions?

2) = One of my=20 biggest concerns about auto-conversions is weight.  The rotary=20 enthusiasts claim it has very low weight.  The = anti-auto-conversion=20 people point out that much of the extra weight in a conversion comes = from all=20 the extra stuff you have to modify or add to make it work = properly.  What=20 would the real final installed wieght of a renesis on an RV-9 be, = compared=20 with an O-320 installation (i.e. not just engine weight, but total = installed=20 weight)?

3) Power - Subaru auto conversions are popular in = RVs. =20 However, people put in Subie engines that are advertised to be 165 HP, = but at=20 the prop they develop much less power, and a popular complaint is that = these=20 aircraft end-up being slow, and under-powered.  What is the case = with a=20 Rotary?  If I put a Renesis on an RV-9A, would this give me as = much power=20 as an O-320?  Do I need a CS prop?  My strong preference is = to use a=20 FP prop.

4) Money - assuming I buy a remanufactured engine from = Mazda=20 or somewhere else (i.e. buy a remanufactured engine and not overhaul = an older=20 engine myself), how much money will I really save, after you account = for all=20 the accessories and modifications?

Thanks for any advice you = folks can=20 offer on these questions!

Phil Kaye  =20
 
___________________________________
Phillip = Kaye
RV-9A=20 Ser# 91440
C-FUNC(reserved)
www.c-func.com

--
Homepage:&= nbsp;=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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