X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.75] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1045070 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:16:03 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.75; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 06:15:17 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.114.66 by BAY115-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:15:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.114.66] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary installed weight comparison Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:15:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C64F23.7510C200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:15:13 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2006 14:15:17.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[6091C5C0:01C64F4D] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C64F23.7510C200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hennie, There are as many ways to specify engine weights as there are = specifiers : ) The Bare block 13B with water pump is 180 lb. That is = the only HARD data point that you can start with. Only you can do the = rest of the math to arrive at your engine weight. My guess is that a belt reduction is going to weigh about the same as = the gear drive I use. YMMV, but I would not give up my seat in the = electric chair to fly a cantilevered pulley reduction drive. I'd have = nightmares about something breaking every time I did aerobatics with it. = That cyclic bending stress on the crankshaft can't be good even = thought the rotary has a pretty robust crank. Just my opinion, there are no "carved in stone" truths on this list : ) Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hennie van Rooyen = [HQP]=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 6:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary installed weight comparison Thanks guys. I do read everything over at Paul Lamar's group, the = Osprey group and also over here on a regular basis. But I've read of = 160# to in the mid 300# 13B's.( and even the mentioned 190# which = started this thread) I'm hoping to use a 13B in my amphib and would like = to keep everything as simple and as light as possible, hence my = question. I know about Ken's Coot, but his is heavy. (Yes, I know he uses nitro = to boost his power to 300hp for water take-offs which sounds like a neat = solution! And I believe he's done this often with no ill results) = However, I'm trying to keep my project as light as possible to keep = water operating speeds as low as possible. One last question: Would a belt PSRU be much lighter than the geared = ones mostly used? Also, is it REALLY neccessary to use two bearing on = both pulleys as I've seen a 13B installatioin which used only one on = each end. Regards, Hennie=20 -----Original Message----- From: Michael McGee [mailto:jmpcrftr@teleport.com] Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 4:40 AM Subject: Rotary installed weight comparison ..(this was the thread about the [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from = Lancair ES List ).. Here's info for a rotary installation comparison if Tracy can recall = his last W&B on his RV-4. Tracy, how does your plane compare to this?=20 a.. My RV-4 is bone stock VFR with lights (think = J3-with-a-speed-kit) first flown in '96.=20 b.. Lyc O-320 E2G, 150 HP, 2 mags, carb, no vacuum system, one = radio and transponder=20 c.. Sensenich FP metal prop with 2 2" spacers (41 pounds total for = prop & spacers)=20 d.. That big stock boat anchor starter=20 e.. Heavier than necessary 10 ply tires (extra 6#) because they = were on sale.=20 Empty weight 979# with 48# on the tail wheel Empty CG 69.25 inches (using the 60 inch datum) Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 At 09:00 2006-03-23, you wrote: It varies a lot depending on builder choices but I would put it = closer to an O - 320, a 30 - 45 lb difference depending on which of the = many versions of the IO - 360 that Lycoming made). The counterweighted = crankshaft on the angle valve IO-360 (200 HP models) accounts for a 28 = pound increase alone. =20 Tracy Hennie, I'm told the 2-rotor will come in about the same as an IO-360 = installation. This is a very common install in the RV-6, also in the = RV-4 (Tracy Crook). If you're really interested, you can get onto the = Fly Rotary group. Good bunch of guys and they will be able to answer = any question you may have about the rotary. =20 Mark =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ = mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Hennie van Rooyen [HQP] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List =20 Hi Mark and anyone, =20 " Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul = Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an easy = 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine." =20 What would be a reasonable firewall forward weight of such a N/A = complete installation? What I really want to know is what is the = lightest installation to be expected based on average experience? =20 Regards, =20 Hennie = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- This e-mail is confidential and is for the addressee only.=20 Please refer to http://www.kumbaresources.com/email-disclaimer = for important disclaimers. = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C64F23.7510C200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Hennie,
 There are as many ways to specify engine weights as there are = specifiers : )  The Bare block 13B  with water pump is 180 = lb. =20 That is the only HARD data point that you can start with.   = Only you=20 can do the rest of the math to arrive at your engine weight.
 
My guess is that a belt reduction is going to weigh about the = same as=20 the gear drive I use.  YMMV, but I would not give up my seat in the = electric chair to fly a cantilevered pulley reduction drive.  I'd = have=20 nightmares about something breaking every time I did aerobatics with=20 it.   That cyclic bending stress on the crankshaft can't be = good even=20 thought the rotary has a pretty robust crank.
 
Just my opinion,  there are no "carved in stone" truths on = this list :=20 )
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hennie van Rooyen = [HQP]=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 = 6:38=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = installed=20 weight comparison

Thanks guys. I do read everything over at Paul = Lamar's group,=20 the Osprey group and also over here on a regular basis. But I've = read of=20 160# to in the mid 300# 13B's.( and even the mentioned 190# which = started=20 this thread) I'm hoping to use a 13B in my amphib and = would=20 like to keep everything as simple and as light as possible, hence my=20 question.
 
I=20 know about Ken's Coot, but his is heavy. (Yes, I know he uses nitro to = boost=20 his power to 300hp for water take-offs which sounds like a neat = solution!=20 And I believe he's done this often with no ill results) = However, I'm=20 trying to keep my project as light as possible to keep = water=20 operating speeds as low as possible.
 
One=20 last question: Would a belt PSRU be much lighter than the geared ones = mostly=20 used? Also, is it REALLY neccessary to use two bearing on both pulleys = as I've=20 seen a 13B installatioin which used only one on each = end.
 
Regards,
Hennie 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGee=20 [mailto:jmpcrftr@teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, March 24, = 2006 4:40=20 AM
Subject: Rotary installed weight=20 comparison

..(this was the thread about the = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List )..

Here's info for a = rotary=20 installation comparison if Tracy can recall his last W&B on his=20 RV-4.  Tracy, how does your plane compare to this?=20
  • My RV-4 is bone stock VFR with lights (think = J3-with-a-speed-kit)=20 first flown in '96.=20
  • Lyc O-320 E2G, 150 HP, 2 mags, carb, no vacuum system, one = radio and=20 transponder=20
  • Sensenich FP metal prop with 2 2" spacers (41 pounds total for = prop=20 & spacers)=20
  • That big stock boat anchor starter=20
  • Heavier than necessary 10 ply tires (extra 6#) because they = were on=20 sale.
Empty weight 979# with 48# on the tail = wheel
Empty CG=20 69.25 inches (using the 60 inch datum)


Mike McGee, RV-4 = N996RV,=20 O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR
13B in gestation mode, RD-1C,=20 EC-2



At 09:00 2006-03-23, you wrote:
It varies a lot = depending on=20 builder choices but I would put it closer to an O - 320,  a = 30 - 45=20 lb difference depending on which of the many versions of the IO - = 360 that=20 Lycoming made).  The counterweighted crankshaft on the angle = valve=20 IO-360  (200 HP models) accounts for a 28 pound increase=20 alone.
 
Tracy

Hennie,
I=92m told the 2-rotor will come in about the same as an = IO-360=20 installation.  This is a very common install in the RV-6, = also in=20 the RV-4 (Tracy Crook).  If you=92re really interested, you = can get=20 onto the Fly Rotary group.  Good bunch of guys and they = will be=20 able to answer any question you may have about the rotary.

 =20
Mark   

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [=20 mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Hennie = van=20 Rooyen [HQP]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES=20 List

 =20
Hi = Mark and=20 anyone,

 =20
" Mazdatrix = recently dyno=92d a=20 N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, = running a=20 carburetor.  That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a = 195#=20 engine."

 =20
What would be a=20 reasonable firewall forward weight of such a N/A complete = installation?=20 What I really want to know is what is the lightest installation = to be=20 expected based on average experience?

 =20
Regards,

 =20
Hennie
---------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
This=20 e-mail is confidential and is for the addressee only.
Please = refer=20 to http://www.kumbaresources.com/email-disclaimer for important=20 = disclaimers.
---------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
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