X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1044581 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:29:12 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.67; envelope-from=jerryhey@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WJJoWrBBaNwD8Q+Ze8DrawgLHNkGUejAIcY3/QINBUxhs+7aAIzNlVHq0Y1UgsOc; h=Received:Mime-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Message-Id:From:Subject:Date:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [71.49.145.5] (helo=[192.168.0.100]) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FMc2N-0001wW-8L for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:28:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--496670387 Message-Id: <52B51EFD-E99B-460E-B40C-BFAB466ABDD7@earthlink.net> From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:19:30 -0500 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) X-ELNK-Trace: 8104856d7830ec6b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a00ae4ef92efa043242425d52d9b2fba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.49.145.5 --Apple-Mail-1--496670387 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed I think the rpm was 7500 for 250 hp. I did not save the original =20 message but that is what I recall. At 6000 rpm you can expect =20 between 210 and 220 hp with the p port. Port size and location (i.e. =20 timing) along with intake i.d. and length are variables that will =20 effect hp at any given hp. Jerry On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:31 PM, John Downing wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hennie van Rooyen [HQP] > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:56 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List > > Hi Mark and anyone, > > "Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul =20 > Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an easy =20 > 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine." > > What would be a reasonable firewall forward weight of such a N/A =20 > complete installation? What I really want to know is what is the =20 > lightest installation to be expected based on average experience? > > Regards, > > Hennie > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark R Steitle [mailto:mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:59 PM > Subject: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List > > Hey Guys, > > I thought I would forward a post from the Lancair ES list =20 > concerning rotaries (oldest post on the bottom). There are very =20 > few rotary powered Lancairs, so I=92m kinda the front man on this one =20= > by default. I may come to some of the Fly Rotary =93experts=94 for =20= > help if I get in a corner, but so far, everyone=92s been polite and =20= > its been a fun exchange. > > > > I=92m sure there is more to come. > > > > Mark Steitle > > Lancair ES =96 N/A 20B > > > > > > From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com =20 > [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:41 AM > To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Rotary > > > > Gary, > > First, it is not my intent to flame you or anyone else. I only =20 > strive to educate. I don=92t know just where your calculations are =20= > off, but obviously something is amiss. Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-=20 > rotor engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp. The 2.0L 3-rotor was =20 > only produced in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very =20 > conservative 299hp. The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-=20 > rotor) is rated at 238 hp. > > > > Attached is a hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine =20 > that was used in the Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in =20 > 1990. It shows that it produced 675hp at 9000rpm. That is over =20 > 150 hp/rotor. While this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it =20= > also was normally-aspirated. Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A =20 > peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a =20 > carburetor. That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# =20 > engine. (While 6000rpm might sound high, keep in mind that the =20 > crank turns 3X the rotor speed. So, when the crank is turning =20 > 6000rpm, the rotors are only going 2000rpm.) > > > > Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-=20 > rotor producing 375hp at 6200. This is in the rpm ballpark of =20 > where you would normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a =20= > 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS model RD2-C. It should be noted =20 > that the rotary=92s lowest bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm. So, 6200 =20= > is very close to the =93sweet spot=94 as far as bearing loads are =20 > concerned. > > > > Turbo=92d rotaries can produce an incredible amount of power for =20 > their size. 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that =20 > unusual. That would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same =20 > boost. So, 580hp at 7000 is well within reach of the common man. =20 > A Velocity builder in California (Al Glitzen) recently dyno=92d his N/=20= > A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. > > > > In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of =20= > all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula =20 > to make racing fair for all participants. It effectively doubles =20 > the 1.3L displacement and treats it is a 2.6L. If you compare the =20 > airflow of the 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-=20 > stroke piston engine would. So, the SCCA considers the =20 > displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the 20B. Maybe =20 > this helps explain why they produce more hp than your calculations =20 > would indicate. > > > > As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of the =20 > rotary is its soft failure modes. If they=92re running when the =20 > failure occurs, they will usually keep running until they are shut =20 > down, then they will refuse to re-start. The 13B has only 3 moving =20= > parts, two pistons and a crank. Pistons are cast iron and the =20 > crank is bullet-proof. > > > > For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) =20 > web site atwww.rotaryeng.net. > > > > Mark Steitle > > > > > > > > > > From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com =20 > [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Casey > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM > To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES] Rotary > > > > I should probably take this to the rotary engine list as they seem to > have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes: A > naturally aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my > predictions, would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm. Under boost, > and I don't know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold > pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches > Hg, I would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less. This > roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran > to about 8500 rpm. The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my prediction > and about twice the best specific output from Mazda. And then the > 580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which > is higher than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb). > > All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES. It > would tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite > well and that would produce 275 hp. With some effort the turbo setup > could be matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft. Power > would probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still > respectable. The thing that always bothered my about the rotary > option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% higher than > a piston engine. The thing that is attractive is that there are > very few catastrophic failure modes. They will keep running with a > broken apex seal and even with no coolant. > > Gary Casey > On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, wrote: > > > ed > > the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. in. > > engine. > > we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the 40hr > > test. we are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun > > and we have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for > > the rotary community. we are going to ground test it > > before another guy flight test it. > > paul brannon N117ES > > > > --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote: > > > >> Paul, > >> > >> What is the cubic inch engine size of the rotary, > >> and what prop will you use?? > >> > >> Ed Rosiak > >> > >> > >> -------------- Original message > >> ---------------------- > >> From: > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: > >> To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk some sense > >> into me! > >> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 +0000 > >> > > > > --------------------------------- > > bryan > > no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston > > speeds. > > we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it > > made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm. > > we will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp > > and make about 330-350 hp. > > paul brannon N117ES > > > > --- bjburr@mwheli.com wrote: > > > > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: > > Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com > > If you have questions for the group administrator, send it to: > > Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > Visit your group "Lancair_ES" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20= > ------------------- > This e-mail is confidential and is for the addressee only. > Please refer to http://www.kumbaresources.com/email-disclaimer for =20 > important disclaimers. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20= > ------------------- > --Apple-Mail-1--496670387 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 I think the rpm was 7500 for 250 = hp.=A0 I did not save the original message but that is what I recall.=A0 = At 6000 rpm you can expect between 210 and 220 hp with the p port. Port = size and location (i.e. timing) along with intake i.d. and length are = variables that will effect hp at any given hp.=A0 =A0=A0 =A0Jerry


On Mar 23, = 2006, at 8:31 PM, John Downing wrote:

=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:56 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES = List

Hi Mark=A0and = anyone,
=A0
"Mazdatrix = recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ = 6000rpm, running a carburetor.=A0 That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 = hp from a 195# engine."
=A0
What would be a reasonable = firewall forward weight of such a N/A complete installation? What I = really want to know is what is the lightest installation to be expected = based on average experience?
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
Mark R Steitle [mailto:mark.steitle@austin.= utexas.edu]
Wednesday, March = 22, 2006 6:59 PM

Hey Guys,

I thought I would = forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries (oldest post = on the bottom).=A0 There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, so I=92m = kinda the front man on this one by default.=A0 I may come to some of the = Fly Rotary =93experts=94 for help if I get in a corner, but so far, = everyone=92s been polite and its been a fun exchange.=A0

I=92m sure there is = more to come.=A0

=A0

Mark Steitle

Lancair ES =96 N/A 20B

Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN> = [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN>] On Behalf Of = Mark R Steitle
Wednesday, March = 22, 2006 8:41 AM
= Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN>
RE: [Lancair_ES] = Rotary

=A0

,First, it is not my intent to flame you = or anyone else.=A0 I only strive to educate.=A0 I don=92t know just = where your calculations are off, but obviously something is amiss. = =A0Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp.=A0= The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was = rated at a very conservative 299hp.=A0 The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a = 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp.=A0Attached is a = hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in the = Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990.=A0 It shows that it = produced 675hp at 9000rpm.=A0 That is over 150 hp/rotor.=A0 While this = engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was normally-aspirated.=A0 = Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar = at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor.=A0 That is an easy = 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine.=A0 (While 6000rpm might = sound high, keep in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed.=A0 So, = when the crank is turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going = 2000rpm.)

=A0

Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a = turbo 3-rotor producing 375hp at 6200.=A0 This is in the rpm ballpark of = where you would normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a = 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS model RD2-C.=A0 It should be noted that = the rotary=92s lowest bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm.=A0 So, 6200 is = very close to the =93sweet spot=94 as far as bearing loads are = concerned.

=A0

Turbo=92d rotaries can produce an incredible amount of = power for their size.=A0 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that = unusual.=A0 That would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same = boost.=A0 So, 580hp at 7000 is well within reach of the common man.=A0 A = Velocity builder in (Al Glitzen) recently dyno=92d his N/A = 20B at 275 hp @ 6000.=A0 =A0

=A0

In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the = pants off of all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer = formula to make racing fair for all participants.=A0 It effectively = doubles the 1.3L displacement and treats it is a 2.6L.=A0 If you compare = the airflow of the 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L = 4-stroke piston engine would.=A0 So, the SCCA considers the displacement = to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the 20B.=A0 Maybe this helps explain = why they produce more hp than your calculations would = indicate.

=A0

As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of = the rotary is its soft failure modes.=A0 If they=92re running when the = failure occurs, they will usually keep running until they are shut down, = then they will refuse to re-start.=A0 The 13B has only 3 moving parts, = two pistons and a crank.=A0 Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof.=A0

=A0

For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) web site = atwww.rotaryeng.net. =A0

=A0

Mark Steitle=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN> = [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN>] On Behalf Of = Gary Casey
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM
= Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN>
Re: [Lancair_ES] = Rotary

=A0

I should probably take this to the = rotary engine list as they seem to=A0
have napalm = ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes:=A0 A=A0 =
naturally = aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my=A0 =
predictions, = would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm.=A0 Under boost,=A0 =
and I don't = know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold=A0 =
pressure or = more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches=A0 =
Hg, I would = predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less.=A0 This=A0 =
roughly = correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran=A0 =
to about 8500 = rpm.=A0 The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my prediction=A0 =
and about = twice the best specific output from Mazda.=A0 And then the=A0 =
580 hp at = 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which=A0 =
is higher = than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb).

All that is = not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES.=A0 It=A0 =
would = tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite=A0 =
well and that = would produce 275 hp.=A0 With some effort the turbo setup=A0 =
could be = matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft.=A0 Power=A0 =
would = probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still=A0 =
respectable.=A0= The thing that always bothered my about the = rotary=A0
option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% = higher than=A0
a piston engine.=A0=A0 The thing that is attractive is that = there are=A0
very few catastrophic failure modes.=A0 They will keep = running with a=A0
broken apex seal and even with no = coolant.

Gary Casey
On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com> = wrote:

> ed
>=A0=A0 the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. = in.
> = engine.
> we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the = 40hr
> test. we = are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun
> and we = have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for
> the = rotary community. we are going to ground test it
> before = another guy flight test it.
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 paul brannon=A0 = N117ES
>
> --- erosiak@comcast.net = wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> What is the cubic inch engine size of the = rotary,
>> and what prop will you use??
>> Ed Rosiak
>>
>>=A0 -------------- Original = message
>> ----------------------
>> = From: <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>> From:=A0=A0=A0 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>> = To:=A0=A0=A0 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com<= /SPAN>
>> Subject:=A0=A0=A0 RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk = some sense
>> into me!
>> Date:=A0=A0=A0 Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 = +0000
>>
>
> = ---------------------------------
> = bryan
>=A0=A0 = no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston
> = speeds.
>=A0=A0 we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) = it
> made 580 = hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm.
>=A0 we = will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp
> and make = about 330-350 hp.
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 paul brannon=A0=A0 = N117ES
>
> --- bjburr@mwheli.com = wrote:




To Post a message to the group, send it = to:

Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com<= /SPAN>

To = Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:

Lancair_ES-unsubscr= ibe@YahooGroups.com

If you have questions for the group administrator, send it = to:

Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGro= ups.com


=A0