X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.78] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1043868 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:05:07 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.78; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:00:36 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.174.189 by BAY115-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:00:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.174.189] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:00:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0084_01C64E71.6022EB50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:00:27 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 17:00:36.0786 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E570120:01C64E9B] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C64E71.6022EB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It varies a lot depending on builder choices but I would put it closer = to an O - 320, a 30 - 45 lb difference depending on which of the many = versions of the IO - 360 that Lycoming made). The counterweighted = crankshaft on the angle valve IO-360 (200 HP models) accounts for a 28 = pound increase alone. Tracy Hennie, I'm told the 2-rotor will come in about the same as an IO-360 = installation. This is a very common install in the RV-6, also in the = RV-4 (Tracy Crook). If you're really interested, you can get onto the = Fly Rotary group. Good bunch of guys and they will be able to answer = any question you may have about the rotary. =20 Mark =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Hennie van Rooyen [HQP] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List =20 Hi Mark and anyone, =20 "Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar = at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an easy 125hp/rotor, = and 250 hp from a 195# engine." =20 What would be a reasonable firewall forward weight of such a N/A = complete installation? What I really want to know is what is the = lightest installation to be expected based on average experience? =20 Regards, =20 Hennie =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Mark R Steitle [mailto:mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:59 PM Subject: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hey Guys,=20 I thought I would forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning = rotaries (oldest post on the bottom). There are very few rotary powered = Lancairs, so I'm kinda the front man on this one by default. I may come = to some of the Fly Rotary "experts" for help if I get in a corner, but = so far, everyone's been polite and its been a fun exchange. =20 =20 I'm sure there is more to come. =20 =20 Mark Steitle Lancair ES - N/A 20B =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] = On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:41 AM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 Gary, First, it is not my intent to flame you or anyone else. I only = strive to educate. I don't know just where your calculations are off, = but obviously something is amiss. Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor = engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp. The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced = in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very conservative 299hp. = The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. =20 =20 Attached is a hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that = was used in the Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990. It = shows that it produced 675hp at 9000rpm. That is over 150 hp/rotor. = While this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was = normally-aspirated. Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported = 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an = easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine. (While 6000rpm might = sound high, keep in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed. So, = when the crank is turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going 2000rpm.) =20 Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo = 3-rotor producing 375hp at 6200. This is in the rpm ballpark of where = you would normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 = gearbox, such as the RWS model RD2-C. It should be noted that the = rotary's lowest bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm. So, 6200 is very close = to the "sweet spot" as far as bearing loads are concerned.=20 =20 Turbo'd rotaries can produce an incredible amount of power for their = size. 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual. That = would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost. So, 580hp at = 7000 is well within reach of the common man. A Velocity builder in = California (Al Glitzen) recently dyno'd his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. =20 =20 In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of = all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to = make racing fair for all participants. It effectively doubles the 1.3L = displacement and treats it is a 2.6L. If you compare the airflow of the = 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine = would. So, the SCCA considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B = and 3.9L for the 20B. Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp = than your calculations would indicate. =20 As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of the = rotary is its soft failure modes. If they're running when the failure = occurs, they will usually keep running until they are shut down, then = they will refuse to re-start. The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two = pistons and a crank. Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20 =20 For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) = web site at www.rotaryeng.net. =20 =20 Mark Steitle =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] = On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 I should probably take this to the rotary engine list as they seem = to =20 have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes: A =20 naturally aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20 predictions, would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm. Under boost, = and I don't know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) = manifold =20 pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches = =20 Hg, I would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less. = This =20 roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran = to about 8500 rpm. The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my = prediction =20 and about twice the best specific output from Mazda. And then the =20 580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which = is higher than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb). All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES. = It =20 would tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite =20 well and that would produce 275 hp. With some effort the turbo = setup =20 could be matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft. Power =20 would probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20 respectable. The thing that always bothered my about the rotary =20 option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% higher = than =20 a piston engine. The thing that is attractive is that there are =20 very few catastrophic failure modes. They will keep running with a = broken apex seal and even with no coolant. Gary Casey On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, wrote: > ed > the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. in. > engine. > we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the 40hr > test. we are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun > and we have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for > the rotary community. we are going to ground test it > before another guy flight test it. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> What is the cubic inch engine size of the rotary, >> and what prop will you use?? >> >> Ed Rosiak >> >> >> -------------- Original message >> ---------------------- >> From: >> >> >> >>> From: >> To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk some sense >> into me! >> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 +0000 >> > > --------------------------------- > bryan > no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston > speeds. > we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it > made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm. > we will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp > and make about 330-350 hp. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- bjburr@mwheli.com wrote: To Post a message to the group, send it to: Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com If you have questions for the group administrator, send it to: Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS=20 =20 a.. Visit your group = "Lancair_ES" on the web. =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- =20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- This e-mail is confidential and is for the addressee only.=20 Please refer to http://www.kumbaresources.com/email-disclaimer = for important disclaimers. = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C64E71.6022EB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It varies a lot depending on builder choices but I would put it = closer to=20 an O - 320,  a 30 - 45 lb difference depending on which of the many = versions of the IO - 360 that Lycoming made).  The = counterweighted=20 crankshaft on the angle valve IO-360  (200 HP models) accounts = for a=20 28 pound increase alone.
 
Tracy

Hennie,

I=92m told = the 2-rotor=20 will come in about the same as an IO-360 installation.  This is a = very=20 common install in the RV-6, also in the RV-4 (Tracy Crook).  If = you=92re=20 really interested, you can get onto the Fly Rotary group.  Good = bunch of=20 guys and they will be able to answer any question you may have about = the=20 rotary.

 

Mark =20   

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Hennie van Rooyen [HQP]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 = 5:56=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

 

Hi = Mark and=20 anyone,

 

"Mazdatrix = recently=20 dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ = 6000rpm, running=20 a carburetor.  That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a = 195#=20 engine."

 

What would = be a=20 reasonable firewall forward weight of such a N/A complete = installation? What I=20 really want to know is what is the lightest installation to be = expected based=20 on average experience?

 

Regards,

 

Hennie

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Mark R Steitle=20 [mailto:mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 6:59=20 PM
Subject: = Rotary - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

Hey Guys, =

I thought = I would=20 forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries (oldest = post on=20 the bottom).  There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, so = I=92m kinda=20 the front man on this one by default.  I may come to some of = the Fly=20 Rotary =93experts=94 for help if I get in a corner, but so far, = everyone=92s been=20 polite and its been a fun exchange.  =

 

I=92m = sure there is=20 more to come. 

 

Mark=20 Steitle

Lancair = ES =96 N/A=20 20B

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 8:41=20 AM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

Gary,

First, it = is not my=20 intent to flame you or anyone else.  I only strive to = educate.  I=20 don=92t know just where your calculations are off, but obviously = something is=20 amiss.  Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines anywhere from = 160 to=20 180 hp.  The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a turbo model = (20B-REW)=20 and was rated at a very conservative 299hp.  The new RX-8 = Renesis=20 engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. =20

 

Attached = is a=20 hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in = the Mazda=20 LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990.  It shows that it = produced=20 675hp at 9000rpm.  That is over 150 hp/rotor.  While this = engine=20 was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was = normally-aspirated. =20 Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul = Lamar at=20 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor.  That is an easy = 125hp/rotor,=20 and 250 hp from a 195# engine.  (While 6000rpm might sound = high, keep=20 in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed.  So, when the = crank is=20 turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going=20 2000rpm.)

 

Also = attached is a=20 dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor producing 375hp = at=20 6200.  This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would normally = operate=20 a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS = model=20 RD2-C.  It should be noted that the rotary=92s lowest bearing = loads occur=20 at 5900 rpm.  So, 6200 is very close to the =93sweet spot=94 as = far as=20 bearing loads are concerned.

 

Turbo=92d = rotaries=20 can produce an incredible amount of power for their size.  = 500hp from a=20 turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual.  That would = correlate to=20 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost.  So, 580hp at 7000 is = well=20 within reach of the common man.  A Velocity builder in = California (Al=20 Glitzen) recently dyno=92d his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. =20  

 

In the = early days=20 of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of all the = competition, so=20 the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to make racing fair for = all=20 participants.  It effectively doubles the 1.3L displacement and = treats=20 it is a 2.6L.  If you compare the airflow of the 1.3L rotary = engine it=20 pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine would.  So, = the SCCA=20 considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the=20 20B.  Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp than = your=20 calculations would indicate.

 

As you = pointed out,=20 one of the most attractive features of the rotary is its soft = failure=20 modes.  If they=92re running when the failure occurs, they will = usually=20 keep running until they are shut down, then they will refuse to=20 re-start.  The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a=20 crank.  Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20

 

For more=20 information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary = Engine) web=20 site at www.rotaryeng.net.=20  

 

Mark = Steitle =20

 

 

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary = Casey
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 = 10:06=20 PM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

I should probably take this = to the=20 rotary engine list as they seem to 
have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", = but here=20 goes:  A 
naturally=20 aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20
predictions, would = produce=20 about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm.  Under boost, =20
and I don't know = whether this=20 one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold  =
pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which = would be=20 about 50 inches 
Hg, I=20 would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less.  = This =20
roughly correlates to = 275 hp=20 for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran  =
to about 8500 rpm.  The claim below is 580 = hp, or=20 twice my prediction 
and=20 about twice the best specific output from Mazda.  And then = the =20
580 hp at 7,000 would = be=20 equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which  =
is higher than the peak torque stated (386=20 ft-lb).

All that = is not to=20 say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES.  It =20
would tolerate 50 = inches of=20 manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite  =
well and that would produce 275 hp.  With = some=20 effort the turbo setup 
could be matched to give a critical altitude of = 10,000=20 ft.  Power 
would=20 probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20
respectable.  = The thing=20 that always bothered my about the rotary  =
option is the relatively high fuel consumption, = maybe 10%=20 higher than 
a = piston=20 engine.   The thing that is attractive is that there = are =20
very few catastrophic = failure=20 modes.  They will keep running with a  =
broken apex seal and even with no=20 coolant.

Gary=20 Casey
On Mar 21, 2006, = at 9:30=20 AM, <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ed
>   the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter = or 120=20 cu. in.
>=20 engine.
> we have = an IVO prop=20 on it to get us through the 40hr
> test. we are going to look at the MT prop = at=20 sun-n-fun
> and we = have a=20 prop that chuck diaz has designed for
> the rotary community. we are going to = ground test=20 it
> before another = guy=20 flight test it.
>       paul=20 brannon  N117ES
>
> ---=20 erosiak@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>=20 Paul,
>>
>> What is the cubic inch engine size of = the=20 rotary,
>> and = what prop=20 will you use??
>>
>> Ed Rosiak
>>
>>
>>  -------------- Original=20 message
>>=20 ----------------------
>>=20 From: <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From:   =20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>> To:    Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject:    RE: = [Lancair_ES]=20 Someone talk some sense
>>=20 into me!
>>=20 Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13=20 +0000
>>
>
>=20 ---------------------------------
> bryan
>   no! no! we hope to be a little = better=20 than piston
>=20 speeds.
>   we did=20 dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it
> made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ = 5400=20 rpm.
>  we = will turbo=20 normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp
> and make about 330-350 = hp.
>          &nbs= p;=20 paul brannon   N117ES
>
> ---=20 bjburr@mwheli.com = wrote:




To = Post a message to=20 the group, send it to:

Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message=20 to:

Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com

If you have questions for the group = administrator, send=20 it to:

Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20

YAHOO! GROUPS=20 LINKS=20

 

  •  Visit = your group=20 "Lancair_ES" = on the=20 web.
     
  •  To = unsubscribe=20 from this group, send an email to:
     Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
     =20
  •  Your = use of=20 Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of=20 Service.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
This=20 e-mail is confidential and is for the addressee only.
Please = refer=20 to http://www.kumbaresources.com/email-disclaimer for important=20 = disclaimers.
---------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C64E71.6022EB50--