X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.88] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1043827 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:55:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.88; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:54:42 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.174.189 by BAY115-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:54:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.174.189] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:54:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0075_01C64E70.8DB1C7E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:54:34 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 16:54:42.0113 (UTC) FILETIME=[7AF03310:01C64E9A] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C64E70.8DB1C7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree (I think) but not sure I understand the 'partially agree' part = : ) What exactly was the part you disagreed with?=20 Your statement about 'how much fuel/air the engine processes' is = exactly correct and is the only point I made. NOTHING else matters when = sanity checking the power claims about any engine. That is what Gary = (on Lancair list) was trying to do when he got the rotary HP estimate = off by 50%. Why does this always generate so much confusion? =20 Tracy (found PC board factory reversed the layers on my Fly-by-wire = prototype : ( =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rijakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:41 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Here we go again! Personally I think you cannot directly compare the piston to the = rotary. However, what do you want? a) Compare chamber volume? b) Compare swept chamber volumes for one "stroke" or all "strokes"? c) Compare pumped volume per crank-revolution? d) Compare pumped volume for every chamber-once (6x for a 2-rotor)? e) Tracy, you are only partially right, now let's talk 2-stroke = piston: a 1-liter 2 stroke is still a 1-liter engine, allthough it will = have twice the power (in theory) as a 4-stroke (...and pump twice the = volume, but it still is a 1-liter) Granted, the 4-stroke will pump the same amount, but only pumps half = of it out, the other half gets compressed and expands again in the same = cylinder... f) Compare it 4-stroke or 2-stroke? g) Want a good tax-measure, Mazda did it!? So, one would have to really go and define on what basis you want to = compare what.... I think the only real value to us is, how much fuel/air does it use = per time-unit to make horsepower and how much does it weight while doing = this and how long does it last? E.g.: How much power does it make for how long with 20 gallons of = fuel, compared to a piston? Don't care about displacement/rpm/PSRU etc. Anyway, there is no doubt:=20 Rotaries rule!! period. Thomas J. :) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hi Mark, Glad you are there to represent the rotraries. Sounds like the = usual misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in play = there. Try to get them to understand that the displacement of a rotary = is rated in terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned in 1 = revolution. The piston engine takes 2 revolutions to do burn its rated = displacement. This makes the 2 liter 20B equivalent to a 4 liter piston = engine. That is the source of Gary's HP calculation error. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark R Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hey Guys,=20 I thought I would forward a post from the Lancair ES list = concerning rotaries (oldest post on the bottom). There are very few = rotary powered Lancairs, so I'm kinda the front man on this one by = default. I may come to some of the Fly Rotary "experts" for help if I = get in a corner, but so far, everyone's been polite and its been a fun = exchange. =20 =20 I'm sure there is more to come. =20 =20 Mark Steitle Lancair ES - N/A 20B =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com = [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:41 AM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 Gary, First, it is not my intent to flame you or anyone else. I only = strive to educate. I don't know just where your calculations are off, = but obviously something is amiss. Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor = engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp. The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced = in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very conservative 299hp. = The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. =20 =20 Attached is a hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine = that was used in the Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990. = It shows that it produced 675hp at 9000rpm. That is over 150 hp/rotor. = While this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was = normally-aspirated. Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported = 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an = easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine. (While 6000rpm might = sound high, keep in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed. So, = when the crank is turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going 2000rpm.) =20 Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo = 3-rotor producing 375hp at 6200. This is in the rpm ballpark of where = you would normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 = gearbox, such as the RWS model RD2-C. It should be noted that the = rotary's lowest bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm. So, 6200 is very close = to the "sweet spot" as far as bearing loads are concerned.=20 =20 Turbo'd rotaries can produce an incredible amount of power for = their size. 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual. = That would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost. So, = 580hp at 7000 is well within reach of the common man. A Velocity = builder in California (Al Glitzen) recently dyno'd his N/A 20B at 275 hp = @ 6000. =20 =20 In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the pants off = of all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to = make racing fair for all participants. It effectively doubles the 1.3L = displacement and treats it is a 2.6L. If you compare the airflow of the = 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine = would. So, the SCCA considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B = and 3.9L for the 20B. Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp = than your calculations would indicate. =20 As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of the = rotary is its soft failure modes. If they're running when the failure = occurs, they will usually keep running until they are shut down, then = they will refuse to re-start. The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two = pistons and a crank. Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20 =20 For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) = web site at www.rotaryeng.net. =20 =20 Mark Steitle =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com = [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 I should probably take this to the rotary engine list as they seem = to =20 have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes: A =20 naturally aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20 predictions, would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm. Under = boost, =20 and I don't know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) = manifold =20 pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 = inches =20 Hg, I would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less. = This =20 roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which = ran =20 to about 8500 rpm. The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my = prediction =20 and about twice the best specific output from Mazda. And then the = =20 580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, = which =20 is higher than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb). All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES. = It =20 would tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite = well and that would produce 275 hp. With some effort the turbo = setup =20 could be matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft. Power = would probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20 respectable. The thing that always bothered my about the rotary =20 option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% higher = than =20 a piston engine. The thing that is attractive is that there are = very few catastrophic failure modes. They will keep running with = a =20 broken apex seal and even with no coolant. Gary Casey On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, wrote: > ed > the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. in. > engine. > we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the 40hr > test. we are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun > and we have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for > the rotary community. we are going to ground test it > before another guy flight test it. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> What is the cubic inch engine size of the rotary, >> and what prop will you use?? >> >> Ed Rosiak >> >> >> -------------- Original message >> ---------------------- >> From: >> >> >> >>> From: >> To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk some sense >> into me! >> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 +0000 >> > > --------------------------------- > bryan > no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston > speeds. > we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it > made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm. > we will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp > and make about 330-350 hp. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- bjburr@mwheli.com wrote: To Post a message to the group, send it to: Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com If you have questions for the group administrator, send it to: Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS=20 =20 a.. Visit your group = "Lancair_ES" on the web. =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C64E70.8DB1C7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree (I think)  but not sure I understand the 'partially = agree'=20 part : )   What exactly was the part you=20 disagreed with? 
 
 Your statement about 'how much fuel/air the engine processes' = is=20 exactly correct and is the only point I made.  NOTHING else matters = when=20 sanity checking the power claims about any engine.  That is what = Gary (on=20 Lancair list) was trying to do when he got the rotary HP estimate = off by=20 50%. Why does this always generate so much confusion?   =
 
Tracy  (found PC board factory reversed the layers = on my=20 Fly-by-wire prototype   : (  
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: rijakits
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 = 7:41=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

Here we go again!
 
Personally I think you cannot = directly compare=20 the piston to the rotary.
However, what do you = want?
a) Compare chamber = volume?
b) Compare swept chamber volumes for = one "stroke"=20 or all "strokes"?
c) Compare pumped volume per=20 crank-revolution?
d) Compare pumped volume for every = chamber-once=20 (6x for a 2-rotor)?
e) Tracy, you are only partially = right, now let's=20 talk 2-stroke piston: a 1-liter 2 stroke is still a 1-liter engine, = allthough=20 it will have twice the power (in theory) as a 4-stroke (...and pump = twice the=20 volume, but it still is a 1-liter)
Granted, the 4-stroke will pump the = same amount,=20 but only pumps half of it out, the other half gets compressed and = expands=20 again in the same cylinder...
f) Compare it 4-stroke or = 2-stroke?
g) Want a good tax-measure, Mazda did = it!?
 
So, one would have to really go and = define on=20 what basis you want to compare what....
 
I think the only real value to us is, = how much=20 fuel/air does it use per time-unit to make horsepower and how much = does it=20 weight while doing this and how long does it last?
 
E.g.: How much power does it make for = how long=20 with 20 gallons of fuel, compared to a piston?
Don't care about = displacement/rpm/PSRU=20 etc.
 
Anyway, there is no doubt: =
Rotaries rule!!=20 period.
 
Thomas J. :)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 4:54=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Rotary - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

Hi Mark,
Glad you are there to represent the rotraries.  Sounds = like the=20 usual misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in = play=20 there.  Try to get them to understand that the displacement of = a rotary=20 is rated in terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned=20 in 1 revolution.  The piston engine takes 2 = revolutions to do=20 burn its rated displacement.  This makes the 2 liter 20B = equivalent to=20 a 4 liter piston engine.  That is the source of Gary's HP = calculation=20 error.
 
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark R Steitle =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 11:59=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary = - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

Hey = Guys,=20

I = thought I would=20 forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries = (oldest post=20 on the bottom).  There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, = so I=92m=20 kinda the front man on this one by default.  I may come to = some of=20 the Fly Rotary =93experts=94 for help if I get in a corner, but so = far,=20 everyone=92s been polite and its been a fun exchange. =20

 

I=92m = sure there is=20 more to come. 

 

Mark=20 Steitle

Lancair = ES =96 N/A=20 20B

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of = Mark R Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 8:41=20 AM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

Gary,

First, = it is not=20 my intent to flame you or anyone else.  I only strive to=20 educate.  I don=92t know just where your calculations are = off, but=20 obviously something is amiss.  Mazda rated the N/A 13B = 2-rotor=20 engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp.  The 2.0L 3-rotor was = only=20 produced in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very = conservative=20 299hp.  The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is = rated at=20 238 hp. 

 

Attached is a=20 hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in = the=20 Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990.  It shows = that it=20 produced 675hp at 9000rpm.  That is over 150 hp/rotor.  = While=20 this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was=20 normally-aspirated.  Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A=20 peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a = carburetor.  That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a = 195#=20 engine.  (While 6000rpm might sound high, keep in mind that = the crank=20 turns 3X the rotor speed.  So, when the crank is turning = 6000rpm, the=20 rotors are only going 2000rpm.)

 

Also = attached is=20 a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor producing = 375hp at=20 6200.  This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would = normally=20 operate a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such as = the RWS=20 model RD2-C.  It should be noted that the rotary=92s lowest = bearing=20 loads occur at 5900 rpm.  So, 6200 is very close to the = =93sweet spot=94=20 as far as bearing loads are concerned. =

 

Turbo=92d rotaries=20 can produce an incredible amount of power for their size.  = 500hp from=20 a turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual.  That would = correlate to=20 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost.  So, 580hp at 7000 is = well=20 within reach of the common man.  A Velocity builder in = California (Al=20 Glitzen) recently dyno=92d his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. =20  

 

In the = early days=20 of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of all the = competition, so=20 the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to make racing fair for = all=20 participants.  It effectively doubles the 1.3L displacement = and=20 treats it is a 2.6L.  If you compare the airflow of the 1.3L = rotary=20 engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine = would. =20 So, the SCCA considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and = 3.9L=20 for the 20B.  Maybe this helps explain why they produce more = hp than=20 your calculations would indicate.

 

As you = pointed=20 out, one of the most attractive features of the rotary is its soft = failure=20 modes.  If they=92re running when the failure occurs, they = will usually=20 keep running until they are shut down, then they will refuse to=20 re-start.  The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a = crank.  Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20

 

For = more=20 information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary = Engine) web=20 site at www.rotaryeng.net.=20  

 

Mark=20 Steitle 

 

 

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary = Casey
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, = 2006 10:06=20 PM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

I = should probably=20 take this to the rotary engine list as they seem to =20
have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", = but here=20 goes:  A 
naturally=20 aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20
predictions, would = produce=20 about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm.  Under boost, =20
and I don't know = whether this=20 one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold  =
pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which = would be=20 about 50 inches 
Hg, I=20 would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less.  = This =20
roughly correlates = to 275 hp=20 for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran  =
to about 8500 rpm.  The claim below is = 580 hp, or=20 twice my prediction 
and=20 about twice the best specific output from Mazda.  And then = the =20
580 hp at 7,000 = would be=20 equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which  =
is higher than the peak torque stated (386=20 ft-lb).

All that = is not to=20 say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES.  It =20
would tolerate 50 = inches of=20 manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite  =
well and that would produce 275 hp.  = With some=20 effort the turbo setup 
could be matched to give a critical altitude = of 10,000=20 ft.  Power 
would=20 probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20
respectable.  = The thing=20 that always bothered my about the rotary  =
option is the relatively high fuel = consumption, maybe=20 10% higher than 
a=20 piston engine.   The thing that is attractive is that = there=20 are 
very few=20 catastrophic failure modes.  They will keep running with = a =20
broken apex seal = and even=20 with no coolant.

Gary=20 Casey
On Mar 21, = 2006, at 9:30=20 AM, <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com> = wrote:

> ed
>   the rotary is a 20b. a 2 = liter or 120=20 cu. in.
>=20 engine.
> we have = an IVO=20 prop on it to get us through the 40hr
> test. we are going to look at the MT = prop at=20 sun-n-fun
> and = we have a=20 prop that chuck diaz has designed for
> the rotary community. we are going to = ground test=20 it
> before = another guy=20 flight test it.
>       paul = brannon  N117ES
>
>=20 --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> What is the cubic inch engine size = of the=20 rotary,
>> and = what prop=20 will you use??
>>
>> Ed Rosiak
>>
>>
>>  -------------- Original=20 message
>>=20 ----------------------
>> From:=20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From:   =20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>> To:    = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject:    RE: = [Lancair_ES]=20 Someone talk some sense
>> into me!
>> Date:    Tue, 21 Mar = 2006=20 15:22:13 +0000
>>
>
>=20 ---------------------------------
> bryan
>   no! no! we hope to be a = little better=20 than piston
>=20 speeds.
>   we=20 did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) = it
> made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue = @ 5400=20 rpm.
>  we = will turbo=20 normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp
> and make about 330-350=20 hp.
>          &nbs= p;=20 paul brannon   N117ES
>
>=20 --- bjburr@mwheli.com = wrote:




To = Post a message=20 to the group, send it to:

Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message=20 to:

Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com

If you have questions for the group = administrator, send=20 it to:

Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20


YAHOO! GROUPS=20 LINKS=20

 

  •  Visit your=20 group "Lancair_ES" on the = web.
     
  •  To = unsubscribe=20 from this group, send an email to:
     Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
     =20
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