X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.168] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1043173 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:42:40 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.168; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend2.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 61993799 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: <00c301c64e12$8a52d520$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:41:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C64DE8.9C160CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C64DE8.9C160CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here we go again! Personally I think you cannot directly compare the piston to the rotary. However, what do you want? a) Compare chamber volume? b) Compare swept chamber volumes for one "stroke" or all "strokes"? c) Compare pumped volume per crank-revolution? d) Compare pumped volume for every chamber-once (6x for a 2-rotor)? e) Tracy, you are only partially right, now let's talk 2-stroke piston: a 1-liter 2 stroke is still a 1-liter engine, allthough it will have twice the power (in theory) as a 4-stroke (...and pump twice the volume, but it still is a 1-liter) Granted, the 4-stroke will pump the same amount, but only pumps half of it out, the other half gets compressed and expands again in the same cylinder... f) Compare it 4-stroke or 2-stroke? g) Want a good tax-measure, Mazda did it!? So, one would have to really go and define on what basis you want to compare what.... I think the only real value to us is, how much fuel/air does it use per time-unit to make horsepower and how much does it weight while doing this and how long does it last? E.g.: How much power does it make for how long with 20 gallons of fuel, compared to a piston? Don't care about displacement/rpm/PSRU etc. Anyway, there is no doubt: Rotaries rule!! period. Thomas J. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hi Mark, Glad you are there to represent the rotraries. Sounds like the usual misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in play there. Try to get them to understand that the displacement of a rotary is rated in terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned in 1 revolution. The piston engine takes 2 revolutions to do burn its rated displacement. This makes the 2 liter 20B equivalent to a 4 liter piston engine. That is the source of Gary's HP calculation error. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark R Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hey Guys, I thought I would forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries (oldest post on the bottom). There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, so I'm kinda the front man on this one by default. I may come to some of the Fly Rotary "experts" for help if I get in a corner, but so far, everyone' s been polite and its been a fun exchange. I'm sure there is more to come. Mark Steitle Lancair ES - N/A 20B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:41 AM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Rotary Gary, First, it is not my intent to flame you or anyone else. I only strive to educate. I don't know just where your calculations are off, but obviously something is amiss. Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines anywhere from 160 to 180 hp. The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very conservative 299hp. The new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. Attached is a hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in the Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990. It shows that it produced 675hp at 9000rpm. That is over 150 hp/rotor. While this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was normally-aspirated. Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine. (While 6000rpm might sound high, keep in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed. So, when the crank is turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going 2000rpm.) Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor producing 375hp at 6200. This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS model RD2-C. It should be noted that the rotary's lowest bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm. So, 6200 is very close to the "sweet spot" as far as bearing loads are concerned. Turbo'd rotaries can produce an incredible amount of power for their size. 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual. That would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost. So, 580hp at 7000 is well within reach of the common man. A Velocity builder in California (Al Glitzen) recently dyno' d his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to make racing fair for all participants. It effectively doubles the 1.3L displacement and treats it is a 2.6L. If you compare the airflow of the 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine would. So, the SCCA considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the 20B. Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp than your calculations would indicate. As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of the rotary is its soft failure modes. If they're running when the failure occurs, they will usually keep running until they are shut down, then they will refuse to re-start. The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a crank. Pistons are cast iron and the crank is bullet-proof. For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) web site at www.rotaryeng.net. Mark Steitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES] Rotary I should probably take this to the rotary engine list as they seem to have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes: A naturally aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my predictions, would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm. Under boost, and I don't know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches Hg, I would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less. This roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran to about 8500 rpm. The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my prediction and about twice the best specific output from Mazda. And then the 580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which is higher than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb). All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES. It would tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite well and that would produce 275 hp. With some effort the turbo setup could be matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft. Power would probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still respectable. The thing that always bothered my about the rotary option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% higher than a piston engine. The thing that is attractive is that there are very few catastrophic failure modes. They will keep running with a broken apex seal and even with no coolant. Gary Casey On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, wrote: > ed > the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. in. > engine. > we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the 40hr > test. we are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun > and we have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for > the rotary community. we are going to ground test it > before another guy flight test it. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> What is the cubic inch engine size of the rotary, >> and what prop will you use?? >> >> Ed Rosiak >> >> >> -------------- Original message >> ---------------------- >> From: >> >> >> >>> From: >> To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk some sense >> into me! >> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 +0000 >> > > --------------------------------- > bryan > no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston > speeds. > we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it > made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm. > we will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp > and make about 330-350 hp. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- bjburr@mwheli.com wrote: To Post a message to the group, send it to: Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com If you have questions for the group administrator, send it to: Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Lancair_ES" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C64DE8.9C160CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here we go again!
 
Personally I think you cannot directly = compare the=20 piston to the rotary.
However, what do you want?
a) Compare chamber volume?
b) Compare swept chamber volumes for = one "stroke"=20 or all "strokes"?
c) Compare pumped volume per=20 crank-revolution?
d) Compare pumped volume for every = chamber-once (6x=20 for a 2-rotor)?
e) Tracy, you are only partially right, = now let's=20 talk 2-stroke piston: a 1-liter 2 stroke is still a 1-liter engine, = allthough it=20 will have twice the power (in theory) as a 4-stroke (...and pump twice = the=20 volume, but it still is a 1-liter)
Granted, the 4-stroke will pump the = same amount,=20 but only pumps half of it out, the other half gets compressed and = expands again=20 in the same cylinder...
f) Compare it 4-stroke or = 2-stroke?
g) Want a good tax-measure, Mazda did=20 it!?
 
So, one would have to really go and = define on what=20 basis you want to compare what....
 
I think the only real value to us is, = how much=20 fuel/air does it use per time-unit to make horsepower and how much does = it=20 weight while doing this and how long does it last?
 
E.g.: How much power does it make for = how long with=20 20 gallons of fuel, compared to a piston?
Don't care about displacement/rpm/PSRU=20 etc.
 
Anyway, there is no doubt: =
Rotaries rule!!=20 period.
 
Thomas J. :)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 = 4:54=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = - FWD=20 from Lancair ES List

Hi Mark,
Glad you are there to represent the rotraries.  Sounds like = the=20 usual misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in play = there.  Try to get them to understand that the displacement of a = rotary=20 is rated in terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned=20 in 1 revolution.  The piston engine takes 2 revolutions = to do=20 burn its rated displacement.  This makes the 2 liter 20B = equivalent to a=20 4 liter piston engine.  That is the source of Gary's HP = calculation=20 error.
 
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark R Steitle =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 11:59=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary - = FWD from=20 Lancair ES List

Hey Guys, =

I thought = I would=20 forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries (oldest = post on=20 the bottom).  There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, so = I=92m kinda=20 the front man on this one by default.  I may come to some of = the Fly=20 Rotary =93experts=94 for help if I get in a corner, but so far, = everyone=92s been=20 polite and its been a fun exchange.  =

 

I=92m = sure there is=20 more to come. 

 

Mark=20 Steitle

Lancair = ES =96 N/A=20 20B

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, = 2006 8:41=20 AM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

Gary,

First, it = is not my=20 intent to flame you or anyone else.  I only strive to = educate.  I=20 don=92t know just where your calculations are off, but obviously = something is=20 amiss.  Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines anywhere from = 160 to=20 180 hp.  The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a turbo model = (20B-REW)=20 and was rated at a very conservative 299hp.  The new RX-8 = Renesis=20 engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. =20

 

Attached = is a=20 hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in = the Mazda=20 LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990.  It shows that it = produced=20 675hp at 9000rpm.  That is over 150 hp/rotor.  While this = engine=20 was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was = normally-aspirated. =20 Mazdatrix recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul = Lamar at=20 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor.  That is an easy = 125hp/rotor,=20 and 250 hp from a 195# engine.  (While 6000rpm might sound = high, keep=20 in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed.  So, when the = crank is=20 turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going=20 2000rpm.)

 

Also = attached is a=20 dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor producing 375hp = at=20 6200.  This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would normally = operate=20 a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS = model=20 RD2-C.  It should be noted that the rotary=92s lowest bearing = loads occur=20 at 5900 rpm.  So, 6200 is very close to the =93sweet spot=94 as = far as=20 bearing loads are concerned.

 

Turbo=92d = rotaries=20 can produce an incredible amount of power for their size.  = 500hp from a=20 turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual.  That would = correlate to=20 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost.  So, 580hp at 7000 is = well=20 within reach of the common man.  A Velocity builder in = California (Al=20 Glitzen) recently dyno=92d his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. =20  

 

In the = early days=20 of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of all the = competition, so=20 the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to make racing fair for = all=20 participants.  It effectively doubles the 1.3L displacement and = treats=20 it is a 2.6L.  If you compare the airflow of the 1.3L rotary = engine it=20 pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine would.  So, = the SCCA=20 considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the=20 20B.  Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp than = your=20 calculations would indicate.

 

As you = pointed out,=20 one of the most attractive features of the rotary is its soft = failure=20 modes.  If they=92re running when the failure occurs, they will = usually=20 keep running until they are shut down, then they will refuse to=20 re-start.  The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a=20 crank.  Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20

 

For more=20 information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary = Engine) web=20 site at www.rotaryeng.net.=20  

 

Mark = Steitle =20

 

 

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary = Casey
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 = 10:06=20 PM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

I should probably take this = to the=20 rotary engine list as they seem to 
have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", = but here=20 goes:  A 
naturally=20 aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20
predictions, would = produce=20 about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm.  Under boost, =20
and I don't know = whether this=20 one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold  =
pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which = would be=20 about 50 inches 
Hg, I=20 would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less.  = This =20
roughly correlates to = 275 hp=20 for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran  =
to about 8500 rpm.  The claim below is 580 = hp, or=20 twice my prediction 
and=20 about twice the best specific output from Mazda.  And then = the =20
580 hp at 7,000 would = be=20 equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which  =
is higher than the peak torque stated (386=20 ft-lb).

All that = is not to=20 say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES.  It =20
would tolerate 50 = inches of=20 manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite  =
well and that would produce 275 hp.  With = some=20 effort the turbo setup 
could be matched to give a critical altitude of = 10,000=20 ft.  Power 
would=20 probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20
respectable.  = The thing=20 that always bothered my about the rotary  =
option is the relatively high fuel consumption, = maybe 10%=20 higher than 
a = piston=20 engine.   The thing that is attractive is that there = are =20
very few catastrophic = failure=20 modes.  They will keep running with a  =
broken apex seal and even with no=20 coolant.

Gary=20 Casey
On Mar 21, 2006, = at 9:30=20 AM, <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ed
>   the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter = or 120=20 cu. in.
>=20 engine.
> we have = an IVO prop=20 on it to get us through the 40hr
> test. we are going to look at the MT prop = at=20 sun-n-fun
> and we = have a=20 prop that chuck diaz has designed for
> the rotary community. we are going to = ground test=20 it
> before another = guy=20 flight test it.
>       paul=20 brannon  N117ES
>
> ---=20 erosiak@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>=20 Paul,
>>
>> What is the cubic inch engine size of = the=20 rotary,
>> and = what prop=20 will you use??
>>
>> Ed Rosiak
>>
>>
>>  -------------- Original=20 message
>>=20 ----------------------
>>=20 From: <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From:   =20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>> To:    Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject:    RE: = [Lancair_ES]=20 Someone talk some sense
>>=20 into me!
>>=20 Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13=20 +0000
>>
>
>=20 ---------------------------------
> bryan
>   no! no! we hope to be a little = better=20 than piston
>=20 speeds.
>   we did=20 dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it
> made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ = 5400=20 rpm.
>  we = will turbo=20 normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp
> and make about 330-350 = hp.
>          &nbs= p;=20 paul brannon   N117ES
>
> ---=20 bjburr@mwheli.com = wrote:




To = Post a message to=20 the group, send it to:

Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message=20 to:

Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com

If you have questions for the group = administrator, send=20 it to:

Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20


YAHOO! GROUPS=20 LINKS=20

 

  •  Visit = your group=20 "Lancair_ES" = on the=20 web.
     
  •  To = unsubscribe=20 from this group, send an email to:
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