X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.80] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1042865 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:55:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.80; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:54:26 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.174.7.17 by BAY115-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:54:22 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.174.7.17] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:54:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0067_01C64DD1.42DFE1B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:54:19 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2006 21:54:26.0654 (UTC) FILETIME=[30259FE0:01C64DFB] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C64DD1.42DFE1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, Glad you are there to represent the rotraries. Sounds like the usual = misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in play there. = Try to get them to understand that the displacement of a rotary is rated = in terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned in 1 = revolution. The piston engine takes 2 revolutions to do burn its rated = displacement. This makes the 2 liter 20B equivalent to a 4 liter piston = engine. That is the source of Gary's HP calculation error. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark R Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary - FWD from Lancair ES List Hey Guys,=20 I thought I would forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning = rotaries (oldest post on the bottom). There are very few rotary powered = Lancairs, so I'm kinda the front man on this one by default. I may come = to some of the Fly Rotary "experts" for help if I get in a corner, but = so far, everyone's been polite and its been a fun exchange. =20 =20 I'm sure there is more to come. =20 =20 Mark Steitle Lancair ES - N/A 20B =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] = On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:41 AM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 Gary, First, it is not my intent to flame you or anyone else. I only strive = to educate. I don't know just where your calculations are off, but = obviously something is amiss. Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines = anywhere from 160 to 180 hp. The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a = turbo model (20B-REW) and was rated at a very conservative 299hp. The = new RX-8 Renesis engine (a 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp. =20 =20 Attached is a hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that = was used in the Mazda LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990. It = shows that it produced 675hp at 9000rpm. That is over 150 hp/rotor. = While this engine was a peripheral-ported engine, it also was = normally-aspirated. Mazdatrix recently dyno'd a N/A peripheral-ported = 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp @ 6000rpm, running a carburetor. That is an = easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp from a 195# engine. (While 6000rpm might = sound high, keep in mind that the crank turns 3X the rotor speed. So, = when the crank is turning 6000rpm, the rotors are only going 2000rpm.) =20 Also attached is a dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor = producing 375hp at 6200. This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would = normally operate a rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such = as the RWS model RD2-C. It should be noted that the rotary's lowest = bearing loads occur at 5900 rpm. So, 6200 is very close to the "sweet = spot" as far as bearing loads are concerned.=20 =20 Turbo'd rotaries can produce an incredible amount of power for their = size. 500hp from a turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual. That = would correlate to 750hp from a 3-rotor at the same boost. So, 580hp at = 7000 is well within reach of the common man. A Velocity builder in = California (Al Glitzen) recently dyno'd his N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000. =20 =20 In the early days of the rotary, they were beating the pants off of = all the competition, so the SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to = make racing fair for all participants. It effectively doubles the 1.3L = displacement and treats it is a 2.6L. If you compare the airflow of the = 1.3L rotary engine it pumps as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine = would. So, the SCCA considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B = and 3.9L for the 20B. Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp = than your calculations would indicate. =20 As you pointed out, one of the most attractive features of the rotary = is its soft failure modes. If they're running when the failure occurs, = they will usually keep running until they are shut down, then they will = refuse to re-start. The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a = crank. Pistons are cast iron and the crank is bullet-proof. =20 =20 For more information, check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) web = site at www.rotaryeng.net. =20 =20 Mark Steitle =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com] = On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:06 PM To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES] Rotary =20 I should probably take this to the rotary engine list as they seem to = have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but here goes: A =20 naturally aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20 predictions, would produce about 160 hp at 7,000 rpm. Under boost, =20 and I don't know whether this one is running 39 inches (Hg?) manifold = pressure or more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches =20 Hg, I would predict a power output of 275, maybe a little less. This = roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last twin-turbo RX7, which ran =20 to about 8500 rpm. The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my prediction = and about twice the best specific output from Mazda. And then the =20 580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque of 435 ft-lb, which =20 is higher than the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb). All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good engine for the ES. It = would tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite =20 well and that would produce 275 hp. With some effort the turbo setup = could be matched to give a critical altitude of 10,000 ft. Power =20 would probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20 respectable. The thing that always bothered my about the rotary =20 option is the relatively high fuel consumption, maybe 10% higher than = a piston engine. The thing that is attractive is that there are =20 very few catastrophic failure modes. They will keep running with a =20 broken apex seal and even with no coolant. Gary Casey On Mar 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, wrote: > ed > the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter or 120 cu. in. > engine. > we have an IVO prop on it to get us through the 40hr > test. we are going to look at the MT prop at sun-n-fun > and we have a prop that chuck diaz has designed for > the rotary community. we are going to ground test it > before another guy flight test it. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- erosiak@comcast.net wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> What is the cubic inch engine size of the rotary, >> and what prop will you use?? >> >> Ed Rosiak >> >> >> -------------- Original message >> ---------------------- >> From: >> >> >> >>> From: >> To: Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES] Someone talk some sense >> into me! >> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13 +0000 >> > > --------------------------------- > bryan > no! no! we hope to be a little better than piston > speeds. > we did dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it > made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ 5400 rpm. > we will turbo normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp > and make about 330-350 hp. > paul brannon N117ES > > --- bjburr@mwheli.com wrote: To Post a message to the group, send it to: Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com If you have questions for the group administrator, send it to: Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS=20 =20 a.. Visit your group = "Lancair_ES" on the web. =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C64DD1.42DFE1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark,
Glad you are there to represent the rotraries.  Sounds like = the usual=20 misunderstanding about the displacement of the rotary is in play = there. =20 Try to get them to understand that the displacement of a rotary is rated = in=20 terms of the volume of fuel -air mixture that is burned=20 in 1 revolution.  The piston engine takes 2 revolutions = to do=20 burn its rated displacement.  This makes the 2 liter 20B equivalent = to a 4=20 liter piston engine.  That is the source of Gary's HP calculation=20 error.
 
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark R Steitle =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 = 11:59=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary - = FWD from=20 Lancair ES List

Hey Guys,=20

I thought I = would=20 forward a post from the Lancair ES list concerning rotaries (oldest = post on=20 the bottom).  There are very few rotary powered Lancairs, so = I=92m kinda=20 the front man on this one by default.  I may come to some of the = Fly=20 Rotary =93experts=94 for help if I get in a corner, but so far, = everyone=92s been=20 polite and its been a fun exchange.  =

 

I=92m sure = there is=20 more to come. 

 

Mark=20 Steitle

Lancair ES = =96 N/A=20 20B

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com]=20 On Behalf Of = Mark R Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 = 8:41=20 AM
To: = Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

Gary,

First, it = is not my=20 intent to flame you or anyone else.  I only strive to = educate.  I=20 don=92t know just where your calculations are off, but obviously = something is=20 amiss.  Mazda rated the N/A 13B 2-rotor engines anywhere from 160 = to 180=20 hp.  The 2.0L 3-rotor was only produced in a turbo model = (20B-REW) and=20 was rated at a very conservative 299hp.  The new RX-8 Renesis = engine (a=20 1.3L n/a 2-rotor) is rated at 238 hp.  =

 

Attached is = a=20 hp/torque chart from the Mazda 26B 4-rotor engine that was used in the = Mazda=20 LeMans race car, and won the LeMans in 1990.  It shows that it = produced=20 675hp at 9000rpm.  That is over 150 hp/rotor.  While this = engine was=20 a peripheral-ported engine, it also was normally-aspirated.  = Mazdatrix=20 recently dyno=92d a N/A peripheral-ported 13B for Paul Lamar at 250hp = @ 6000rpm,=20 running a carburetor.  That is an easy 125hp/rotor, and 250 hp = from a=20 195# engine.  (While 6000rpm might sound high, keep in mind that = the=20 crank turns 3X the rotor speed.  So, when the crank is turning = 6000rpm,=20 the rotors are only going 2000rpm.)

 

Also = attached is a=20 dyno chart by Atkins Rotary showing a turbo 3-rotor producing 375hp at = 6200.  This is in the rpm ballpark of where you would normally = operate a=20 rotary airplane engine running a 2.85:1 gearbox, such as the RWS model = RD2-C.  It should be noted that the rotary=92s lowest bearing = loads occur=20 at 5900 rpm.  So, 6200 is very close to the =93sweet spot=94 as = far as=20 bearing loads are concerned.

 

Turbo=92d = rotaries can=20 produce an incredible amount of power for their size.  500hp from = a=20 turbo-charged 13B in not all that unusual.  That would correlate = to 750hp=20 from a 3-rotor at the same boost.  So, 580hp at 7000 is well = within reach=20 of the common man.  A Velocity builder in California (Al Glitzen) recently = dyno=92d his=20 N/A 20B at 275 hp @ 6000.   

 

In the = early days of=20 the rotary, they were beating the pants off of all the competition, so = the=20 SCCA came up with an equalizer formula to make racing fair for all=20 participants.  It effectively doubles the 1.3L displacement and = treats it=20 is a 2.6L.  If you compare the airflow of the 1.3L rotary engine = it pumps=20 as much air as a 2.6L 4-stroke piston engine would.  So, the SCCA = considers the displacement to be 2.6L for the 13B and 3.9L for the = 20B. =20 Maybe this helps explain why they produce more hp than your = calculations would=20 indicate.

 

As you = pointed out,=20 one of the most attractive features of the rotary is its soft failure=20 modes.  If they=92re running when the failure occurs, they will = usually=20 keep running until they are shut down, then they will refuse to=20 re-start.  The 13B has only 3 moving parts, two pistons and a=20 crank.  Pistons are cast iron and the crank is = bullet-proof. =20

 

For more = information,=20 check out the ACRE (AirCraft Rotary Engine) = web site=20 at www.rotaryeng.net.=20  

 

Mark = Steitle =20

 

 

 

 

From:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com=20 [mailto:Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com]=20 On Behalf Of Gary=20 Casey
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 21, 2006 10:06 PM
To:=20 Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Lancair_ES]=20 Rotary

 

I should probably take this = to the rotary=20 engine list as they seem to 
have napalm ready to flame us "disbelievers", but = here=20 goes:  A 
naturally=20 aspirated 2-liter Mazda engine, according to my =20
predictions, would = produce about=20 160 hp at 7,000 rpm.  Under boost,  =
and I don't know whether this one is running 39 = inches=20 (Hg?) manifold 
pressure or=20 more likely 10 psi boost, which would be about 50 inches =20
Hg, I would predict a = power=20 output of 275, maybe a little less.  This  =
roughly correlates to 275 hp for the last = twin-turbo RX7,=20 which ran 
to = about 8500=20 rpm.  The claim below is 580 hp, or twice my prediction =20
and about twice the = best specific=20 output from Mazda.  And then the 
580 hp at 7,000 would be equivalent to a torque = of 435=20 ft-lb, which 
is = higher than=20 the peak torque stated (386 ft-lb).

All that is not to say it wouldn't make a good = engine for=20 the ES.  It 
would=20 tolerate 50 inches of manifold pressure and 7,000 rpm quite =20
well and that would = produce 275=20 hp.  With some effort the turbo setup  =
could be matched to give a critical altitude of = 10,000=20 ft.  Power 
would=20 probably fall off to maybe 200 hp at 20,000 ft, still =20
respectable.  The = thing that=20 always bothered my about the rotary 
option is the relatively high fuel consumption, = maybe 10%=20 higher than 
a = piston=20 engine.   The thing that is attractive is that there = are =20
very few catastrophic = failure=20 modes.  They will keep running with a  =
broken apex seal and even with no=20 coolant.

Gary=20 Casey
On Mar 21, 2006, = at 9:30 AM,=20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ed
>   the rotary is a 20b. a 2 liter = or 120 cu.=20 in.
>=20 engine.
> we have an = IVO prop=20 on it to get us through the 40hr
> test. we are going to look at the MT prop at = sun-n-fun
> and we = have a prop=20 that chuck diaz has designed for
> the rotary community. we are going to ground = test=20 it
> before another = guy flight=20 test it.
>       paul = brannon =20 N117ES
>
> ---=20 erosiak@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>=20 Paul,
>>
>> What is the cubic inch engine size of = the=20 rotary,
>> and = what prop=20 will you use??
>>
>> Ed Rosiak
>>
>>
>>  -------------- Original=20 message
>>=20 ----------------------
>>=20 From: <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From:   =20 <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
>> To:    Lancair_ES@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject:    RE: = [Lancair_ES]=20 Someone talk some sense
>>=20 into me!
>>=20 Date:    Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:22:13=20 +0000
>>
>
>=20 ---------------------------------
> bryan
>   no! no! we hope to be a little = better than=20 piston
>=20 speeds.
>   = we did=20 dyno the engine. 39" mp (10 lbs boost) it
> made 580 hp @7000rpm and 386ft/lb torgue @ = 5400=20 rpm.
>  we will = turbo=20 normalize with 3 lbs boost or 33" mp
> and make about 330-350 = hp.
>          &nbs= p;=20 paul brannon   N117ES
>
> ---=20 bjburr@mwheli.com wrote:




To Post = a message to=20 the group, send it to:

Lancair_ES@YahooGroups.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message=20 to:

Lancair_ES-unsubscribe@YahooGroups.com

If you have questions for the group = administrator, send it=20 to:

Lancair_ES-owner@YahooGroups.com=20


YAHOO! GROUPS=20 LINKS=20

 

  •  Visit = your group=20 "Lancair_ES" on = the=20 web.
     
  •  To = unsubscribe=20 from this group, send an email to:
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     =20
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